valve springs or no?
08-09-2006 | 12:07 PM
#31
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 1
From: Texas/Oklahoma Border
Have gotten real interested in this topic!
Was going to start by buying new factory set and measure their spring pressure; then compare them to mine with 110,000 miles. Got a decent price from my local parts man ... $16.00 @...($384.00 for the set) instead of $20.00@.
I wanted to be up front with him that I will return them if they don't test all the same. He said they are non returnable item for him, so I'm back to square one.
After reading about Don's springs, the price difference does not seem out of line.... just more than I need.... I think?
RJ
Was going to start by buying new factory set and measure their spring pressure; then compare them to mine with 110,000 miles. Got a decent price from my local parts man ... $16.00 @...($384.00 for the set) instead of $20.00@.
I wanted to be up front with him that I will return them if they don't test all the same. He said they are non returnable item for him, so I'm back to square one.
After reading about Don's springs, the price difference does not seem out of line.... just more than I need.... I think?
RJ
08-09-2006 | 01:53 PM
#32
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,347
Likes: 1
From: In the Shop
In 2001 I had a truck here with stock springs. The only mods were a HX40 and a Drag Comp box. It would rev to 3200 rpm. Finally it popped a gasket. Head came off and we found valve to piston contact in all cylinders. Complete valve control was not happening in this case.
Since then I have seen many many cases of the same thing. As time has gone by we have learned to indentify valve float on the 24V engine and how to stop it.
The solution was to control the valvetrain with a stiffer spring or to lighten things enough that stock or close to stock spring rates would maintain control.
Some companies sell titanium retainers, bridges and a titanium alloy spring to get the control. This is fine for a race engine, IMO. Since titanium has been run for years in the gas world, manufacturers and users have figured out that it is NOT a long term street duty solution. The current titanium spring and retainer kit on the market is actually a lower spring rate than a stock 60 lb spring from Cummins. I am guessing they did not need it because of the weight savings of the rest of the components in their system.
IMO, it is was a step backward to drop the rate in a boosted engine. Several reasons: aggressive ramp rates coming along now on the Helix cams need a stronger spring to keep tappets firmly in place as the cam lifts and lowers, boosted engines have pressure across the intake valve that tends to hold the valve open and slow its closing, and they also have a back pressure in the exhaust side that is doing the same thing as the intake.
So, we went with enough spring to keep things in their place and allow the use of the stock steel retainers for long term daily use and durability. They were rate dynoed to 11,000 rpm with a simulated 40 PSI of boost and 40 PSI of back pressure. This allowed us to know that 4500 RPM was totally under control at boost rates much much higher. 100 PSI easily
In todays internet market, products that dont work or that are priced too high will die on the vine as users vett out the junk and search for a better price and product. I knew this of course and can tell you with complete honestly that I make under 20 bucks after I pay shipping on a set of springs. No matter how many we buy, the material and processes to make these things is way out of control expensive. I dont push the springs, but they are required with a Helix 3 cam so the valve spring does not coil bind. The springs are there as a product to support H3 cam sales and is actually half the cost of the titanium system. H2 users can get away with not using them, but run the risk of piston to valve contact as you run the same risk with a stock cam and higher than normal boost and back pressure with increased RPM.
Don~
Since then I have seen many many cases of the same thing. As time has gone by we have learned to indentify valve float on the 24V engine and how to stop it.
The solution was to control the valvetrain with a stiffer spring or to lighten things enough that stock or close to stock spring rates would maintain control.
Some companies sell titanium retainers, bridges and a titanium alloy spring to get the control. This is fine for a race engine, IMO. Since titanium has been run for years in the gas world, manufacturers and users have figured out that it is NOT a long term street duty solution. The current titanium spring and retainer kit on the market is actually a lower spring rate than a stock 60 lb spring from Cummins. I am guessing they did not need it because of the weight savings of the rest of the components in their system.
IMO, it is was a step backward to drop the rate in a boosted engine. Several reasons: aggressive ramp rates coming along now on the Helix cams need a stronger spring to keep tappets firmly in place as the cam lifts and lowers, boosted engines have pressure across the intake valve that tends to hold the valve open and slow its closing, and they also have a back pressure in the exhaust side that is doing the same thing as the intake.
So, we went with enough spring to keep things in their place and allow the use of the stock steel retainers for long term daily use and durability. They were rate dynoed to 11,000 rpm with a simulated 40 PSI of boost and 40 PSI of back pressure. This allowed us to know that 4500 RPM was totally under control at boost rates much much higher. 100 PSI easily
In todays internet market, products that dont work or that are priced too high will die on the vine as users vett out the junk and search for a better price and product. I knew this of course and can tell you with complete honestly that I make under 20 bucks after I pay shipping on a set of springs. No matter how many we buy, the material and processes to make these things is way out of control expensive. I dont push the springs, but they are required with a Helix 3 cam so the valve spring does not coil bind. The springs are there as a product to support H3 cam sales and is actually half the cost of the titanium system. H2 users can get away with not using them, but run the risk of piston to valve contact as you run the same risk with a stock cam and higher than normal boost and back pressure with increased RPM.
Don~
08-09-2006 | 02:25 PM
#34
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Likes: 1
From: In the Shop
I have!! the 60 lb springs on the 12V is fine to about 3800, but the truck will rev way out past that. Some float is already occuring though.
I will get with you privately on the fix. It is cheap and simple.
Don~
I will get with you privately on the fix. It is cheap and simple.
Don~
08-09-2006 | 02:33 PM
#35
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Some comments:
I just put my head back together last night- stock springs, keepers, retainers. (12 valve) Had the springs tested at the machine shop and they tested at 70# plus or minus 10%. That means that the weakest spring would be 63# or more. But Don- You're saying that's not what the 60# is referring to? I figured I was safe since the HD springs I always see available are labeled 60#. Now I'm a little worried.
Also, I was under the impression that the titanium retainers and keepers were used to lighten everything up on the top of the spring for high rev application, just like the tighter coiled end of the spring goes down.
Not sure if anyone has seen the Bigbaddodge site, but it shows the engine buildup at Piers and it looks like there's a second spring inside the bigger spring on that head.
Fred- where can one purchase one of those valve spring compressors for doing the job w/ the head on? We've got a spring compressor but the head has to be off. Thanks! -Josh
I just put my head back together last night- stock springs, keepers, retainers. (12 valve) Had the springs tested at the machine shop and they tested at 70# plus or minus 10%. That means that the weakest spring would be 63# or more. But Don- You're saying that's not what the 60# is referring to? I figured I was safe since the HD springs I always see available are labeled 60#. Now I'm a little worried.
Also, I was under the impression that the titanium retainers and keepers were used to lighten everything up on the top of the spring for high rev application, just like the tighter coiled end of the spring goes down.
Not sure if anyone has seen the Bigbaddodge site, but it shows the engine buildup at Piers and it looks like there's a second spring inside the bigger spring on that head.
Fred- where can one purchase one of those valve spring compressors for doing the job w/ the head on? We've got a spring compressor but the head has to be off. Thanks! -Josh
08-09-2006 | 03:12 PM
#36
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Joined: Jun 2002
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From: In the Shop
I dont have the 12V specs in my office right now, but if my memeory serves me right....they are supposed 144 lbs open and over 70 on the seat. Sounds like you are fine if they measured them at seat height.
08-09-2006 | 04:17 PM
#38
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 1
From: Texas/Oklahoma Border
Originally Posted by cluckmaster
Fred- where can one purchase one of those valve spring compressors for doing the job w/ the head on? We've got a spring compressor but the head has to be off. Thanks! -Josh
PM me your e-mail address and I can send you a picture of it, if interested?
RJ
08-09-2006 | 04:24 PM
#39
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Joined: Jun 2002
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From: In the Shop
I have the tool here, but remember the tools are differnet for the 12 and the 24 V engines.
I think Josh has a 12V.
Josh,
No, the springs cant hold 144 of back pressure. You have the weight of the valve, retainer, locks, and the inertia to overcome. The 60 lb springs are for 60 lbs of back pressure in a stock engine. Also, you have the area of the valve head to consider. It has a defined area and this area multiplied by the pressure applied to it will need to be considered as well.
Don~
I think Josh has a 12V.
Josh,
No, the springs cant hold 144 of back pressure. You have the weight of the valve, retainer, locks, and the inertia to overcome. The 60 lb springs are for 60 lbs of back pressure in a stock engine. Also, you have the area of the valve head to consider. It has a defined area and this area multiplied by the pressure applied to it will need to be considered as well.
Don~
08-09-2006 | 04:33 PM
#40
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 1
From: Texas/Oklahoma Border
Originally Posted by Don M
I have the tool here, but remember the tools are differnet for the 12 and the 24 V engines.
I originally assumed it would be the same but 24v would have 2 extra holes. But since I know so little about 12v's, that's probably dumb.... due to different sized valves and maybe different hole locations on the cylinder?
Thanks for keeping me in line.... again
RJ
)into a cam........Good read.....
08-10-2006 | 07:59 AM
#43
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 1
From: Texas/Oklahoma Border
Thanks for the free advice....got a free H2 lying around also?
Knowing you, you probably do... but I bet it wasn't free
Actually the twins solved all my daily driving problems. Just don't feel the need.
RJ
Knowing you, you probably do... but I bet it wasn't free
Actually the twins solved all my daily driving problems. Just don't feel the need.
RJ
08-10-2006 | 03:54 PM
#45
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 1
From: Texas/Oklahoma Border
Pay attention Grasshopper ...
"Need" is being careful enough on the weekend that your truck will still make it to work on Monday morning.
(Not a problem for those of you with 2 or more)
12v? Is that like an antique three cylinders Cummins??
RJ
"Need" is being careful enough on the weekend that your truck will still make it to work on Monday morning.
(Not a problem for those of you with 2 or more)
12v? Is that like an antique three cylinders Cummins??
RJ