TWINS ??? Which Ones And Why?
07-26-2007, 11:54 AM
#16
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Yup! 14 cm housing would work great on a manual tranny.... I personally don't care for it on an automatic for street driving. JMO.
Thinking outside the box is always worth considering... and especially reguarding Holset. But I don't understand reinventing the wheel? The R&D has been done by many and even poorly matched Holset, home grown, twins have been proven superior to a big singles. When everyone raves about their brand of twin setup .... that should tell you it's hard to make a mistake. I personally never cared (in theory) for a stock HX-35 over an S400. But having driven one, I will say it worked great at 500 hp! (the 35 had not even had the waste gate opened up, but it did have a 14cm turbine housing added)
I just don't see the need for experimentation in this area...... unless it's just for the sake of trying something new! Also, JMO.
RJ
Thinking outside the box is always worth considering... and especially reguarding Holset. But I don't understand reinventing the wheel? The R&D has been done by many and even poorly matched Holset, home grown, twins have been proven superior to a big singles. When everyone raves about their brand of twin setup .... that should tell you it's hard to make a mistake. I personally never cared (in theory) for a stock HX-35 over an S400. But having driven one, I will say it worked great at 500 hp! (the 35 had not even had the waste gate opened up, but it did have a 14cm turbine housing added)
I just don't see the need for experimentation in this area...... unless it's just for the sake of trying something new! Also, JMO.
RJ
very happy with my set... towing is great!!
At 500hp I cannot get my egts over 1350 without water meth or over 1300 with (unloaded of course)..
drive pressures are 1:1 up to 55 and about 68ish and 65 psi boost....
was able to do mine in its entirety for under 2k I think maybe 2200 after 14cm housing? eh dont remember
from sourceautomotive.biz
07-26-2007, 12:18 PM
#17
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I see what you're saying RJ. But I'm kind of a tinkerer, and I'm more than willing to experiment when I feel there's an improvement to be had.
Like you said, twins are so good that it's "hard to make a mistake", so I draw two conclusions from that:
1) Doing your homework will allow the possiblility of improvement.
2) the "extensive" R&D really isn't that involved.
I know that 2nd comment will draw flak, but we in the diesel world have not exactly been carrying the torch for trying new things. Think back to when twins sets were first being built. What what used? Yep-- stock 35s or HX40s over HT3bs. Why? They were cheap and available. The Garrett and T-netics and Precision turbos available now were available back then. But we diesel guys always choose cheap and proven over expensive and experimental.
The only "research" that was done was negotiating the installation (oil drains, plumbing, fitment) and trying to keep the HG in place.
How many Holset turbos are in use in racing outside of diesel land? How about S300s? Simply put, these are heavy-duty turbos for OTR trucks and such applications where spoolup isn't all that important.
A twins application drastically reduces the stress on an individual turbo as far as barking, shaft tq (acceleration rates), etc. When you mount a super-beefy turbo like a BW S300 unit in a twins application, what are you getting for all that beef? Slower spoolup, less response, and an unneeded measure of additional strength.
IMO, a turbo can be optimized for only ONE set of circumstances-anything else reduces performance. After all, aren't twins about having your cake and eating it, too?
I'm still waiting for someone to build some twins with a BB turbo over a BB turbo. If I have to be the first, so be it. But since I'm a man of modest means, it might be 2015 before that happens
Like you said, twins are so good that it's "hard to make a mistake", so I draw two conclusions from that:
1) Doing your homework will allow the possiblility of improvement.
2) the "extensive" R&D really isn't that involved.
I know that 2nd comment will draw flak, but we in the diesel world have not exactly been carrying the torch for trying new things. Think back to when twins sets were first being built. What what used? Yep-- stock 35s or HX40s over HT3bs. Why? They were cheap and available. The Garrett and T-netics and Precision turbos available now were available back then. But we diesel guys always choose cheap and proven over expensive and experimental.
The only "research" that was done was negotiating the installation (oil drains, plumbing, fitment) and trying to keep the HG in place.
How many Holset turbos are in use in racing outside of diesel land? How about S300s? Simply put, these are heavy-duty turbos for OTR trucks and such applications where spoolup isn't all that important.
A twins application drastically reduces the stress on an individual turbo as far as barking, shaft tq (acceleration rates), etc. When you mount a super-beefy turbo like a BW S300 unit in a twins application, what are you getting for all that beef? Slower spoolup, less response, and an unneeded measure of additional strength.
IMO, a turbo can be optimized for only ONE set of circumstances-anything else reduces performance. After all, aren't twins about having your cake and eating it, too?
I'm still waiting for someone to build some twins with a BB turbo over a BB turbo. If I have to be the first, so be it. But since I'm a man of modest means, it might be 2015 before that happens
07-26-2007, 01:35 PM
#18
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Well said...guess we both have points...depending on what each member is looking for!
Sig600...(Chris Mayer) was heading that way... twin BB turbos ... a few months ago on his Hot 98 12v.
But he changes his mind as often as he changes underwear (if he wears any)
RJ
Sig600...(Chris Mayer) was heading that way... twin BB turbos ... a few months ago on his Hot 98 12v.
But he changes his mind as often as he changes underwear (if he wears any)
RJ
07-26-2007, 04:15 PM
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Justin, RJ is mostly right...the GT4088R/RT4508R plans are still in the works...but I'm trying to find a turbo shop I trust to build the big one for me! Of course I also need to get the fueling on this 12v straightened up...it just isn't right! Hopefully, this setup will be built before the end of the year!
I don't plan on changing my mind on that setup, at least until I try it...and if my buddy with the GT3782R (Stage II) runs out of air with that single, it'll get a GT4202R for company. I think that would be the ultimate in towing twins, and should still have enough flow for 575hp+ (I'd say 600hp, but it's an HO
)!Should even be sweet at altitude Justin...but I'm not certain. I've never been over 2000'. I do know the GT4088R spools much slower than the smaller GT37's!
I'd like to try a Turbonetics unit...but they're still too spendy for me...I seem to be able to steal a Garrett now and then!
Chris
Oh Yeah RJ, here's a mental picture for ya...briefs!!!
08-20-2007, 11:57 PM
#21
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As suggested above....that would be top end twins (62 0ver an S4000). Talk to RIP at Source automotive about what's needed. He can steer you right...
http://www.sourceautomotive.biz/
RJ
http://www.sourceautomotive.biz/
RJ
08-21-2007, 07:18 PM
#23
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If your towing that different than just a good set of spool-up. A 24ft race trailer, how heavy? I wouldn't go bigger than 500rwhp for towing. A bit slower spooling but the Hx-40/3b will tow nice and run with the big guys. Cheap. I run that combo, I tow a 12k trailer and run no bigger than 130rwhp injector and tow. For daily driving mash in the mach 6er's or bigger bad some elses. I would also run a 62/14 over a S400. I like bigger exhaust housing cause I tow. With a stick that isn't a big issue or run a looser converter not to lose if you tow lots in gears below od. I like towing in OD. I just replaced both turbos for $1800, with new turbos.
08-22-2007, 10:42 PM
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I've been savin up some money to put together a twins set up, I already have a phat shaft 62, I just dont know what turbo to put below it. Industrial Injection sells the kit with a k-31, but there are lots of guys who have a s-400 or a b-2 or somethin like that, which would you guys think would work best for heavy towing? everything loaded im usually around 25,500. Im also puttin a helix 2 cam in, portin and o-ringin the heads, head studs .. . anyway what turbo would you guys recommend? what about if i were to upgrade to some mach 5's or 6's?
08-23-2007, 08:22 AM
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I've been savin up some money to put together a twins set up, I already have a phat shaft 62, I just dont know what turbo to put below it. Industrial Injection sells the kit with a k-31, but there are lots of guys who have a s-400 or a b-2 or somethin like that, which would you guys think would work best for heavy towing? everything loaded im usually around 25,500. Im also puttin a helix 2 cam in, portin and o-ringin the heads, head studs .. . anyway what turbo would you guys recommend? what about if i were to upgrade to some mach 5's or 6's?
The S400 will work fine for towing, but it's won't spool like a K31, and the bottom end EGT's will be higher with it. Top end EGT's should be a bit lower!
If you want to tow easily, go with the K31...If your worried about all out power and performance, and can live with some towing quirks, go with the S400
Chris
08-23-2007, 08:35 AM
#27
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Just given up on arguing over what many uninformed souls consider 'small' towing twins! And since 600 hp is no longer the upper stratosphere, don't want to point someone in a wrong direction.... plus the newer twins (S300, 62/12 over an S400) are spooling almost as well and move more air.
But for up to 625 hp....I still love my BD's.
RJ
08-25-2007, 10:04 PM
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fortunely for us dodge, cummins guy we have lots of options. I'm thinking that just about anybody's twins is better than a big laggy single. Mach 4 are as big injector that I would use for towing unless there are no hills nearby. Its easy to throw to much fuel into these trucks for towing. Coolant temps get hot just about as fast as your egt's. I just melted my tranny dip stick when I went out on holidays this summer.
08-27-2007, 09:15 PM
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I am running an HTB2 64/14 over an S400 right now. SPool up is slightly slower than what the 64mm was but........... lots more power and less smoke at WOT.
I still can not clean up this fuel even at 80 psi from the twins.
Lance
I still can not clean up this fuel even at 80 psi from the twins.
Lance