TST Powermax3
12-24-2002, 10:42 AM
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Re:TST Powermax3
[quote author=Paul Guthrie link=board=7;threadid=8676;start=0#84392 date=1040741529]<br>However, you've got the cost of two boxes as oppossed to one with the Edge Comp. <br>[/quote]<br><br>Well, sort of Paul. The TST PM3 and the Edge Comp are pretty much identical to one another for peak power. But the TST has a slightly better bottom end (despite not being as aggressive on timing) than the Edge Comp. So the boxes will cost about the same. You stack the EZ with the PM3, and you will have a _much_ better bottom end response than either an Edge Comp or Edge DRAG Comp.<br><br>And onto Scotty's problem with the TST PM3 Competition box: I talked to TST about the strange behaviour, and they were surprised that they didn't stack well, as a standard PM3 stacks very well with the EZ. They're looking into it, but they think that its possible that the EZ doesn't leave enough pulse width at low RPMs for the TST PM3 Comp to follow-map.<br><br>As I get more info, either myself or Scotty will post it up here...<br><br>Rod
12-24-2002, 10:47 AM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Darrell:<br><br>Did you my long "P.M." explaining the "Advanced Diesel"<br>Pusher Pump (PE 4200) Kit??? Just wondering, as I<br>didn't hear back from you.<br><br>--------<br>John_P
12-24-2002, 02:14 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
[quote author=Push Rod link=board=7;threadid=8676;start=15#84440 date=1040748165] <br>
12-24-2002, 06:53 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Rod,<br><br>Do you know if TST has any plans for building an "all-in-one" type box which combines the PM 3 and a "timing" box in one unit??. It would be nice and hopefully cut the costs of stacking boxes.
12-24-2002, 08:53 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Actually the TST box does have timing built in. At part throttle, it will advance up to 9 degrees. At WOT, it'll advance around .5 - 1.5 degrees. Edge Products boxes will advance up to 15 degrees, and I'm unsure of the advance at WOT. <br><br>The idea of stacking the boxes is to simply provide even more performance. The TST box (and Edge) 'follow maps'. In other words, it uses information obtained from the MAP, TPS, and RPM sensors to determine an appropriate timing/fueling level, then looks at whatever info is heading to the VP44 (in the case of stacked boxes, its the Edge's commands) and then adds (or subtracts) a %'age from the values it sees.<br><br>So given that the Edge (or VA, or Diablo, or Bully) box advances timing through the data port, and the TST advances timing through injector pulse modification, you'll always be able to stack the boxes together.<br><br>After re-reading your post, I probably haven't answered your question, have I? ;D I doubt TST will ever build a box that advances as hard as the Edge box does. I'm not sure if its possible to get as much advance by using the injector pump wire, and from talks with Mark, I think it violates his design philosophy (too much advance is hard on the head gasket, which is true).<br><br>But I could be wrong. TST doesn't tell me all ;D<br><br>Rod
12-25-2002, 10:04 AM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Thanks for your input Rod. I was hoping TST was developing thier version of the Edge Comp box. 
So at this point in time it looks like the Edge Comp probably offers the most "bang for your buck" or is a TST PM 3 by itself pretty comparable to the Edge Comp?<br><br>All these various boxes have been out for awhile and are probably "refined" to about as good as they are going to get, but if you had a crystal ball what would it show in the line of box development/improvments in the next year or two?
So at this point in time it looks like the Edge Comp probably offers the most "bang for your buck" or is a TST PM 3 by itself pretty comparable to the Edge Comp?<br><br>All these various boxes have been out for awhile and are probably "refined" to about as good as they are going to get, but if you had a crystal ball what would it show in the line of box development/improvments in the next year or two?
12-25-2002, 01:43 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Lets see if we can pull everything from this thread into one post:
TST PowerMax3 - Fueling/Timing box which is good to 120 HP, so this would be their version of the Edge Comp. Not quite as aggressive on timing, however more aggressive on fueling. So this means its going to have a slightly better bottom end than the Edge Comp. 9 power level adjustable (with optional remote), and low end fueling gets more aggressive as the power level is increased. You've got a few advantages (over the Edge Comp) with a PM3: More aggressive fueling means that it'll respond a little bit better than the Comp will to large injectors and have a better bottom end. Can also be stacked with an Edge EZ, Diablo, or VA box for an extra 20 HP kick, and even ranker bottom end power. But there are some cons too: You must ***** the injection pump wire (no low-end EZ mode), and your EGTs will typically be higher with a PM3. I automatically recommend the TST box to anyone looking for more than 400 HP, or to anyone who wants the max in off-idle response.
Edge Comp - Another great box. Same 120 HP as a PM3, however its a little more aggressive on timing, and a little less aggressive on fueling. 5 power levels, and 5 fuel aggression settings within each power level for low-RPM smoke control. The Edge box has a few advantages over the TST: The first power level (60HP) can be attained without pricking the injection pump wire, and a little more flexibility than the TST box for sub-fueling levels. And an advantage which some may argue isn't an advantage: doesn't fuel as heavy, and makes a good deal of power with timing advance. And the Edge does have some cons associated with it: When mated to large injectors and big turbos, the timing advance will lead to a failed head gasket earlier, and it won't make as much power as the TST product. I recommend the Edge box for those staying under the 400 pony mark, or for those living in high altitudes.
TST will likely never build a box that uses the datalink for timing as they're pretty happy with the results they obtain from timing on the pulse (rightly so, the PM3 is my favorite box) and I actually wouldn't want them to. If they did, you wouldn't be able to stack boxes and make even more power.
Bang for buck? The PM3 adjustable and the Edge Comp both retail for $649 US, each do 120 HP up top, so it simply comes down to choosing the box whose pros match what you want, or whose cons don't cancel them out. Each box has their place, and both are excellent products. Thats why we've kept both boxes in our lineup.
Crystal *****? Both companies already have their overkill boxes out, the PowerMax 3 Competition and the Edge Drag Comp. These boxes pretty much run the VP44 right up to its limit on duty cycle (the PM3 Comp is a little more aggressive). So as far as crystal ***** goes, I'd say that each company is already pushing the limits pretty hard. We'll likely see some refinements, and maybe a little more power from each, but I'd guess that each company will now begin concentrating on the 03s.
Rod
TST PowerMax3 - Fueling/Timing box which is good to 120 HP, so this would be their version of the Edge Comp. Not quite as aggressive on timing, however more aggressive on fueling. So this means its going to have a slightly better bottom end than the Edge Comp. 9 power level adjustable (with optional remote), and low end fueling gets more aggressive as the power level is increased. You've got a few advantages (over the Edge Comp) with a PM3: More aggressive fueling means that it'll respond a little bit better than the Comp will to large injectors and have a better bottom end. Can also be stacked with an Edge EZ, Diablo, or VA box for an extra 20 HP kick, and even ranker bottom end power. But there are some cons too: You must ***** the injection pump wire (no low-end EZ mode), and your EGTs will typically be higher with a PM3. I automatically recommend the TST box to anyone looking for more than 400 HP, or to anyone who wants the max in off-idle response.
Edge Comp - Another great box. Same 120 HP as a PM3, however its a little more aggressive on timing, and a little less aggressive on fueling. 5 power levels, and 5 fuel aggression settings within each power level for low-RPM smoke control. The Edge box has a few advantages over the TST: The first power level (60HP) can be attained without pricking the injection pump wire, and a little more flexibility than the TST box for sub-fueling levels. And an advantage which some may argue isn't an advantage: doesn't fuel as heavy, and makes a good deal of power with timing advance. And the Edge does have some cons associated with it: When mated to large injectors and big turbos, the timing advance will lead to a failed head gasket earlier, and it won't make as much power as the TST product. I recommend the Edge box for those staying under the 400 pony mark, or for those living in high altitudes.
TST will likely never build a box that uses the datalink for timing as they're pretty happy with the results they obtain from timing on the pulse (rightly so, the PM3 is my favorite box) and I actually wouldn't want them to. If they did, you wouldn't be able to stack boxes and make even more power.
Bang for buck? The PM3 adjustable and the Edge Comp both retail for $649 US, each do 120 HP up top, so it simply comes down to choosing the box whose pros match what you want, or whose cons don't cancel them out. Each box has their place, and both are excellent products. Thats why we've kept both boxes in our lineup.
Crystal *****? Both companies already have their overkill boxes out, the PowerMax 3 Competition and the Edge Drag Comp. These boxes pretty much run the VP44 right up to its limit on duty cycle (the PM3 Comp is a little more aggressive). So as far as crystal ***** goes, I'd say that each company is already pushing the limits pretty hard. We'll likely see some refinements, and maybe a little more power from each, but I'd guess that each company will now begin concentrating on the 03s.
Rod
12-25-2002, 02:43 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Rod,
Nice post.
But I'll have to disagree on more overall power with stacked boxes, in my opinion and from what I have seen on Dyno's the Edge Drag Comp will hang with any stacked truck out there, and sometimes even provide more power.
At a recent dyno event trucks with the PM3 Competition w/timing box EZ/Van Aaken stacked and 100hp injectors w/B1's or 40's were beat out or met by trucks with the Edge Comp's, 2 of the trucks were running the Drag Comp.
The HP difference was only 10-20hp but there was a difference, and the Edge box held its own.
So in real terms it gets down to which user feature people want, the power is there with any of the boxes PM3, Blue Chip or Edge.
I will probably try one of the VCR style Blue Chip's someday when I have a grand laying around!
--Justin
Nice post.
But I'll have to disagree on more overall power with stacked boxes, in my opinion and from what I have seen on Dyno's the Edge Drag Comp will hang with any stacked truck out there, and sometimes even provide more power.
At a recent dyno event trucks with the PM3 Competition w/timing box EZ/Van Aaken stacked and 100hp injectors w/B1's or 40's were beat out or met by trucks with the Edge Comp's, 2 of the trucks were running the Drag Comp.
The HP difference was only 10-20hp but there was a difference, and the Edge box held its own.
So in real terms it gets down to which user feature people want, the power is there with any of the boxes PM3, Blue Chip or Edge.
I will probably try one of the VCR style Blue Chip's someday when I have a grand laying around!
--Justin
12-25-2002, 03:49 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=7;threadid=8676;start=15#84765 date=1040849031]<br>But I'll have to disagree on more overall power with stacked boxes, in my opinion and from what I have seen on Dyno's the Edge Drag Comp will hang with any stacked truck out there, and sometimes even provide more power.<br>[/quote]<br><br>It'll depend by and large on the dyno and the operator. I've been to shows where the PMs beat out the Comps handily by that same 10 or 20 HP. The PowerMax's tend to shine on load-test dynos like SuperFlos, the Edge's shine on inertial dynos. <br><br>So, like you say, pick the box with features you want, and run with them. Either way, you'll be more than happy.<br><br>Rod
12-25-2002, 06:28 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Justin:<br><br>I sure want to thank you for getting Johnner to<br>"stack" that TTPM you had on top of his TST PM3<br>@ the "Scheid Rally!!" As I said, it sure made a<br>BIG difference in his truck!!<br><br>--------<br>John_P
12-25-2002, 07:23 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
John,
No problem, I encourage stacking!!
Tell John Jr. hello for me and Merry Christmas to you and your Family!!
Cant wait to see you guys again this summer at the Diesel events.
By the way Aarons truck killed lift pump #2 a couple days ago, for some reason his truck is eating them (that one was less then 60 days old)
Rod,
You bring up an interesting point with the TST PM3 doing better on Mustang/Load dyno's.
John Porterfield Jr's truck made 497rwhp/1189ft lbs on a Mustang dyno at Scheids rally this year (TST PM3, Supermentals, PDR40/16,ATS auto)
Edge Comp trucks were doing much worse, maybe it is the low end fueling of the TST programs, back then I did 332/920ft lbs (higher torque then now) also dynoed with OD locked out.
On the Dynojet/inertia dyno's it seems like the Edge products do better, is it in the programming/mapping?? Does this make them better for the track??
An example of an Edge Truck on an inertia Dyno, I'll use Aaron Otte's (Drag Comp, DD3's, PDR40/18.5, SBCconFE) he did 470hp
1003ft lbs
Torque is almost 200lbs lower on the inertia but the hp is right in line. I bet the bigger turbo people are getting better numbers on the load dyno's.
Anyhow, I know alot of this stuff has been covered before but, alot of people are new around here.
--Justin
No problem, I encourage stacking!!
Tell John Jr. hello for me and Merry Christmas to you and your Family!!
Cant wait to see you guys again this summer at the Diesel events.
By the way Aarons truck killed lift pump #2 a couple days ago, for some reason his truck is eating them (that one was less then 60 days old)
Rod,
You bring up an interesting point with the TST PM3 doing better on Mustang/Load dyno's.
John Porterfield Jr's truck made 497rwhp/1189ft lbs on a Mustang dyno at Scheids rally this year (TST PM3, Supermentals, PDR40/16,ATS auto)
Edge Comp trucks were doing much worse, maybe it is the low end fueling of the TST programs, back then I did 332/920ft lbs (higher torque then now) also dynoed with OD locked out.
On the Dynojet/inertia dyno's it seems like the Edge products do better, is it in the programming/mapping?? Does this make them better for the track??
An example of an Edge Truck on an inertia Dyno, I'll use Aaron Otte's (Drag Comp, DD3's, PDR40/18.5, SBCconFE) he did 470hp
1003ft lbs
Torque is almost 200lbs lower on the inertia but the hp is right in line. I bet the bigger turbo people are getting better numbers on the load dyno's.
Anyhow, I know alot of this stuff has been covered before but, alot of people are new around here.
--Justin
12-25-2002, 07:44 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Justin:<br><br>Thanks for the reply and Merry Christmas to you and<br>your family too!!<br><br>Sorry to hear about Aarons lift pump!! Johnner had<br>to have one replaced on his too! It was not completely<br>"dead" but close! Since we have installed that PE 4300<br>Diesel Fuel "Pusher" Pump and 1/2" Stainless Steel Braided<br>lines from the fuel tank to the VP-44 he can hold a STEADY<br>16 psi of fuel pressure even under WOT!!! 
The bottom<br>end has also improved even more!! "Jetpilot" told us <br>about the pump (he also is running one) and I can tell<br>you it has made a huge difference Justin!! <br><br>___________________<br>Rod:<br><br>Regardi ng what Justin said about my sons truck.......<br>Those dyno readings he had on Scheids Mustang Dyno<br>(497 HP/1189 Tq.) came with a reading of "0" fuel<br>pressure for a few seconds too!! I will be curious<br>to see how his readings will be now, since he doesn't<br>have to worry about that anymore since we installed<br>the PE 4300 "pusher" fuel pump! We will see........<br><br>--------<br>John_P
Johnner had<br>to have one replaced on his too! It was not completely<br>"dead" but close! Since we have installed that PE 4300<br>Diesel Fuel "Pusher" Pump and 1/2" Stainless Steel Braided<br>lines from the fuel tank to the VP-44 he can hold a STEADY<br>16 psi of fuel pressure even under WOT!!! The bottom<br>end has also improved even more!! "Jetpilot" told us <br>about the pump (he also is running one) and I can tell<br>you it has made a huge difference Justin!! <br><br>___________________<br>Rod:<br><br>Regardi ng what Justin said about my sons truck.......<br>Those dyno readings he had on Scheids Mustang Dyno<br>(497 HP/1189 Tq.) came with a reading of "0" fuel<br>pressure for a few seconds too!! I will be curious<br>to see how his readings will be now, since he doesn't<br>have to worry about that anymore since we installed<br>the PE 4300 "pusher" fuel pump! We will see........<br><br>--------<br>John_P
12-25-2002, 08:37 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
Good Summary guys. I too have the PM3 (w/remote) and I'm very happy with it. I believe it's all about preference...that is which box you prefer. Bottom line, they are all good, just depends on what you want. I don't know about the other boxes, but when they say 120HP, 370TQ to the wheels increase, they were not inflating there numbers. You just better get a clutch upgrade (if you have a manual), because at power level 6 and driving aggressive...the clutch will slip easy. Yes, clutch upgrade was step 4...went pretty much like this...PM3, Scotty II, Exhaust, tranny upgrade, Injectors, then the Turbo. Currently (for this month), I'm very happy with the power/performance...have more than enough power.
12-25-2002, 09:14 PM
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Re:TST Powermax3
[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=7;threadid=8676;start=15#84816 date=1040865812]<br>On the Dynojet/inertia dyno's it seems like the Edge products do better, is it in the programming/mapping?? Does this make them better for the track??<br>[/quote]<br><br>I find it interesting as well. I suspect its the bottom end punch of PM that lets it pull down harder. Having been in a variety of trucks with both PMs and Edge boxes, the seat of the pants dyno seems to give the nod to the PMs, but again it's probably just a function of a more aggressive bottom end punch.<br><br>What I'd really like to see is an otherwise stock ETH and a stock ETC, both test a PM3 and a Comp on two different dynos, sled pulling, quarter mile, and the track. There are a world of variables that could influence a test like this, but I still think it would give some valuable info.<br><br>[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=7;threadid=8676;start=15#84816 date=1040865812]<br>Anyhow, I know alot of this stuff has been covered before but, alot of people are new around here.<br>[/quote]<br>Well, this stuff does need to covered once in awhile, for the new guys on the block. I think its the job of the vendors and the guys who have been turning up the trucks for awhile to impart their knowledge wherever they can find it.<br><br>I have a really tough time with the power box sales. TST and Edge are both class act companies with excellent customer service and great products. And I shouldn't leave out Blue Chip either, who I've dealt with in the past. No matter which way a guy goes, he's going to be getting a great product.<br><br>Rod