tranny lock up devices
07-30-2005, 10:11 AM
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tranny lock up devices
I'm getting ready to replace my transmission, and wanted to get an idea of what tranny lock up devices are out there. I'm talking about items like the ATS TripleLok Commander, not the mystery switch. Which ones are out there, and how do they work for you? Thanks.
Roy
Roy
07-30-2005, 07:21 PM
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I was runing the ATS commander on my stage 4. It was okay, but there were a few things I didn't like that they may or may not have engineered out of it by now.
1. The lock-up is late IMHO compared to the set-point. As long as you are really light footed, under slow acceleration (yeah right) the set point was pretty true. But if the R's and the speed climbs quickly, the lag between signal and lock-up is extremely late. I had mine set at 8mph, and during a hard run, I was at 40 by the time it locked up. The REAL downswing to this is on the deceleration. If you set it for 8...or even 18 mph, by the time it unlocks you're ready to stall. The trans really downshifts on its own crappy when the converter is locked up.
2. Early commanders didn't utilize pulse modulation....aka, a slow converter lock sequence. This made the lock-up VERY firm, and a big sector of customers complained. To remedy this, ATS started pulse modulation, which phased in lock-up smoother. The downside to this is the modulation greatly retarded the lock-up set point by several mph. There is a mod to disable the PM on the later commanders. It requires opening up the module and soldering a ground jumper to one of the pins internally on the harness plug. This snaps up the lock-up again. I found the factory PCM did a better job of a true 30 mph lock-up than the commander did as long as OD is defeated.....and it didn't stall the engine, or at the very least cause some drivetrain chatter like the commander does if it is set at less than about 30. Where the commander did vary is that once locked, it stayed locked through OD shift, and it doesn't unlock if you close the throttle like the factory PCM does.
3. Downshifting with the commander on out of OD is virtually non-existent. I believe this to be because line pressures are down due to a low rpm cruise, and with the converter locked up, engine rpm won't instantly increase, like if the stall of the converter was properly used, therefor line pressure doesn't rapidly increase with TV opening causing a downshift. Mind you, I am a 12v RH owner with a hydraulic governor. Electronic governed RE's are a totally different story.
I have proven my overall theory to myself whether or not to lock-up. I've had my ATS apart on more than one occasion and have seen the effects of lock-to-lock shifting. I won't start an argument HERE, but the effects are there. IMO, the solution to keeping the Dodge in its power band is to tailor a converter's stall to each individual engine....this will compensate for different power levels and drivetrain differences. There is no such thing as a once size fits all converter. When I first got my ATS and the engine was fairly stock, stall rpm was okay. But as much power levels went up, I was able to push through that stall speed and lose half of my power band and redline the governor quickly.....full throttle acceleration rpm's were commonly above 2200 rpm with little or no rpm drop between shifts. I think rather than use a lock-up device to harness an engine and cover up a bad stall design, causing all the damage that it can, a converter should be tailored for an engine, leaving the lock-up clutch merely for economy and to drop line temps at cruise. There is to the best of my knowledge only one company that individually profiles each and every customer's truck to custom build a converter FOR THEM. I won't mention names, as I don't want to start the usual vendor war. I have already said more than I probably should have, but the other company can speak up, or their more than satisfied customers will I am sure.
So if you're looking for a controller to hot rod with, take what I have told you and gauge your purchase accordingly. I know with my RH, when racing, the Commander got turned off and the mystery switch saw duty. For everyday driving, the commander took over, but the advantage was no better than the PCM, and hardly worth the high cost associated with it. My .02...or more like $1.50 I guess
AS for me.....I have changed plans and am swapping in a 5600. The truck is plenty quick and powerful for me. I am focusing on another diesel hot rod that will get the full attention of go fast goodies.......https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...threadid=72200.......this will have a full blown auto from company B.
Good luck, hoped I helped.
1. The lock-up is late IMHO compared to the set-point. As long as you are really light footed, under slow acceleration (yeah right) the set point was pretty true. But if the R's and the speed climbs quickly, the lag between signal and lock-up is extremely late. I had mine set at 8mph, and during a hard run, I was at 40 by the time it locked up. The REAL downswing to this is on the deceleration. If you set it for 8...or even 18 mph, by the time it unlocks you're ready to stall. The trans really downshifts on its own crappy when the converter is locked up.
2. Early commanders didn't utilize pulse modulation....aka, a slow converter lock sequence. This made the lock-up VERY firm, and a big sector of customers complained. To remedy this, ATS started pulse modulation, which phased in lock-up smoother. The downside to this is the modulation greatly retarded the lock-up set point by several mph. There is a mod to disable the PM on the later commanders. It requires opening up the module and soldering a ground jumper to one of the pins internally on the harness plug. This snaps up the lock-up again. I found the factory PCM did a better job of a true 30 mph lock-up than the commander did as long as OD is defeated.....and it didn't stall the engine, or at the very least cause some drivetrain chatter like the commander does if it is set at less than about 30. Where the commander did vary is that once locked, it stayed locked through OD shift, and it doesn't unlock if you close the throttle like the factory PCM does.
3. Downshifting with the commander on out of OD is virtually non-existent. I believe this to be because line pressures are down due to a low rpm cruise, and with the converter locked up, engine rpm won't instantly increase, like if the stall of the converter was properly used, therefor line pressure doesn't rapidly increase with TV opening causing a downshift. Mind you, I am a 12v RH owner with a hydraulic governor. Electronic governed RE's are a totally different story.
I have proven my overall theory to myself whether or not to lock-up. I've had my ATS apart on more than one occasion and have seen the effects of lock-to-lock shifting. I won't start an argument HERE, but the effects are there. IMO, the solution to keeping the Dodge in its power band is to tailor a converter's stall to each individual engine....this will compensate for different power levels and drivetrain differences. There is no such thing as a once size fits all converter. When I first got my ATS and the engine was fairly stock, stall rpm was okay. But as much power levels went up, I was able to push through that stall speed and lose half of my power band and redline the governor quickly.....full throttle acceleration rpm's were commonly above 2200 rpm with little or no rpm drop between shifts. I think rather than use a lock-up device to harness an engine and cover up a bad stall design, causing all the damage that it can, a converter should be tailored for an engine, leaving the lock-up clutch merely for economy and to drop line temps at cruise. There is to the best of my knowledge only one company that individually profiles each and every customer's truck to custom build a converter FOR THEM. I won't mention names, as I don't want to start the usual vendor war. I have already said more than I probably should have, but the other company can speak up, or their more than satisfied customers will I am sure.
So if you're looking for a controller to hot rod with, take what I have told you and gauge your purchase accordingly. I know with my RH, when racing, the Commander got turned off and the mystery switch saw duty. For everyday driving, the commander took over, but the advantage was no better than the PCM, and hardly worth the high cost associated with it. My .02...or more like $1.50 I guess
AS for me.....I have changed plans and am swapping in a 5600. The truck is plenty quick and powerful for me. I am focusing on another diesel hot rod that will get the full attention of go fast goodies.......https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...threadid=72200.......this will have a full blown auto from company B.
Good luck, hoped I helped.
07-31-2005, 06:37 PM
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I know OTR PU has been through 3 or 4 ATS controllers. They keep giving him fits.
This looks interesting.
http://www.dieseltrans.com/dodge/smart_controllers.htm
http://bd-power.com/ram/index.php They have a few to choose from.
Never used any of these myself. Just throwing them out there.
This looks interesting.
http://www.dieseltrans.com/dodge/smart_controllers.htm
http://bd-power.com/ram/index.php They have a few to choose from.
Never used any of these myself. Just throwing them out there.
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