doug

Don M is right -- stage 2 injectors with an EZ will push your turbo past its optimum range (to say nothing about the clutch). Note that there is no DD upgrade bundle that includes a box + stage 2 injectors without a turbo upgrade. So really, the most cost effective sensible upgrades for those of us with HX-35 turbos is probably stage 1 or 275s with a box. yea, you could do this with 2's or 3's and no fueling box, but then you lose control over low boost fueling (smoke) and that control is something which I happen to value!<br><br>EZ+stage 1's is the limit for the HX 35. Just be glad you have that and not an HY . Anyway, EZ plus stage 2's would essentially be a waste because you wouldn't be able to use that additional HP without a turbocharger upgrade -- or at least upgrade the exhaust housing on the stock HX. Thats kind-of where I am now -- I have EZ fueling but not interested in junking my Hx35. There's value there that I don't want to throw away, so I'm becoming more and more supportive of the smaller injector upgrades -- stage 1s or 275s, when coupled with an EZ box. The only way to make use of stage 2's would be to change the turbo housing at a minimum, and preferably change to a Piers hybrid HX35 or even an HX40. <br><br>On that subject, Piers recommends an upgraded (hybrid) Hx35 for use with EZ and DDII's. Thats essentially an HX40 impeller in an Hx35 with a larger exhaust housing. But thats 900 bucks. Anyway, my point is that if you want to stick with your stock turbo (which I do as well) stage 2's are too much with a box. <br><br>On a related subject, I will tell you that I followed an obviously bombed 99 around town the other day -- blowing little smoke kisses at every shift point. I followed him to destination so I could inquire as to his mods -- he was running stage 2's and no box. To me, that means stage 2's plus a box is going to smoke, unless you are able to control it with the EZ jumper settings. To me, that risk is not good if you're out to maximize city drivability with low smoke. <br><br>Indeed, my EZ fueling creates smoke today with stock injectors. So in my opinion you are right to be concerned with smoke, drivability, and longevity. <br><br>I think you'll be very happy with your 275's. Your clutch should handle them with your box. my only advice would have been to look into stage 1's instead, simply because they manufactured with greater precision (that is, the 6 DDI injectors will be more consistent within the set, than will a set of 275's), and you might get a tad better fuel economy.<br><br>I think you've got a very sensible balance of smiles and practicality with your setup. with the possible exception of DDI's, any more aggressive and you're looking at clutch and turbo upgrades, plus more daily driving smoke. Personally I'm at the point where I'm suspicous that stage II's can be controlled for city smoke only with a comp box and sub level 1 or 2, which is a low boost setting not possible with the EZ box. ---Doug

NWDave

I know this thread leans towards you &quot;stick's&quot; but how about us &quot;poor&quot; slush box owners? Mine is stock and will remain so for another year or so (economic reasons). What are the effects of me dropping in 275's and an Edge Comp, not wired? I don't need to smoke through town, nor am I interested in devastating every ricer I meet. I just would like the effects of Gear Poets upgrade, alittle better mpg, smoother idle, etc... Later, after the tranny upgrade, I'm sure I'll rethink the path of upgrade but for now .... Hey, some of us don't have deep pockets..<br><br>~Dave

BarryG

Ditto what NWdave said. Would like to hear some opinions

CWICKHAM

DO I NEED A BOX WITH 275'S?,,,WHAT ABOUT BIGGER FUEL LINES. ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE GAGES BEFORE BIGGER INJECTORS,,SHOULD HAVE THOSE BEFORE SPRING. I HAVE A STOCK SLUSH BOX FOR NOW BUT PLAN ON UPGRADING VALVE BODY AND SOONER THAN LATER UPGRADING INTERNAL COMPONENTS.<br><br>I WAS ALSO CURIOUS ABOUT HAIR DRYER UPGRADES UNTIL I READ A FEW OF THESE REPLIES.

doug

Ascraeus, you've been through what I'm going through now -- the injector question. Indeed, I understand from reading all the posts in recent months that the ETH responds very well to 275s. I'm really glad you posted what you did, because I don't want to degrade my idle (I don't know how it could get any smoother, actually, as my idle is very smooth now with stock injectors). Also, your friend's experience with DDI's is also very interesting to me, and important to note -especially the rougher idle. <br><br>It has been my understanding, from talking with both Diesel Dynamics and Piers, that the ETH responds especially well to stage 2 injectors (better than 1's or 3's) and that the stage 2's represent no change in idle performance, noise, or smoothness. <br><br>As for greater precision, I'm refering to the differences between injectors in a manufacturing run. As I visited with DD I came to believe that their extrude hone process has a very low variability -- meaning that each of the injector holes are consistent in size both within each injector and between different injectors. But that doesn't necessarily mean they will idle smoother -- the DD injectors are made for upper end pull and towing power and frankly it does not surprise me that there is a trade off between idle smoothness and upper-end power.<br><br>But thank-you again for that data point comparing DD1's and 275s in an ETH with EZ fueling. That is very interesting to me and strengthens the argument GP makes about 275s as a sensible upgrade especially for boxes. I too have an ETH and a comp box with no wire hooked up. right now my injectors are stock, which explains why this subject is so interesting to me. <br><br>As for the percentage figures themselves, DD matches in sets of 6 to 2%. that is, each injector is flow tested and matched with others just like it -- to make up the matched sets of 6. Bosch does not do that with the 275s. you will have large production runs with a distribution of flow rates that follow the laws of statistics. the individual injectors are not matched to each other. Which doesn't mean you won't get a good set of 6 -- it only means that they are not deliberately matched and you're at the mercy of statistics and manufacturing tolerances.<br><br>Back to the extrude hone process. its bascially forcing putty mixed with a controlled abrasive through the injector. Yes, enlarging the holes, but also flattening out the spray pattern. Anyway, I'm pretty sure they use new tips on those as the're pretty cheap. I don't know how they could create a repeatable manufacturing process otherwise.<br><br>I can't really speak to the question of slush box trucks and what injectors are best. there's a lot of guys out there running them, so lets hear from them on the actual configurations they are running. The essential differences between the ETH 6-speeds and the ETC slush boxes are:<br><br>1. the HY 35 turbo - it has a smaller (9cm) exhaust housing and so spools up quicker but does not support the air flow and higher HP that the HX will. its good to about a max of about 28-30 pounds boost, beyond which it is operating beyond its efficiency map. This means that at 30 lbs boost, my understanding is that it would be better to dump the air with a wastegate, rather than forcing it back into the system where it can't do any thing except increase EGTs. My guess is that EZ+275s would be fine for the little HY, especially if you changed the intake system (scotty II, for example) and the exaust.<br><br>2. The ETC fuel pump is a different animal. It has a lower fuel rail pressure and a larger peak fuel delivery volume than the ETH does, so it responds better to fueling boxes. For the same reason, the ETC does not respond as well to the smaller injectors as an ETH does, and the ETC actually smokes more with stage 2's than the ETH does. I think there is an argument that there is ultimately a bit more HP possible with an ETC than with an ETH (the engine itself that is. whether or not that HP is usable or not depends on the air system including the turbo). <br><br>3. The slush box itself needs to be built up to handle the HP, but I don't know all the details here. The DD website, for example, recommends tranny upgrades when you go over 300 HP (EZ + stage 1's). To me that suggests that an EZ plus 275s might be an interesting combo, at just under 300 HP, for the autos? you slush box guys will have to calilbrate me here.<br><br>

doug

[quote author=CWICKHAM link=board=4;threadid=7206;start=15#69877 date=1037804345]<br>DO I NEED A BOX WITH 275'S?,,,WHAT ABOUT BIGGER FUEL LINES. ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE GAGES BEFORE BIGGER INJECTORS,,SHOULD HAVE THOSE BEFORE SPRING. I HAVE A STOCK SLUSH BOX FOR NOW BUT PLAN ON UPGRADING VALVE BODY AND SOONER THAN LATER UPGRADING INTERNAL COMPONENTS.<br><br>I WAS ALSO CURIOUS ABOUT HAIR DRYER UPGRADES UNTIL I READ A FEW OF THESE REPLIES.<br>[/quote]<br><br>you dont &quot;need&quot; a box with 275s, but your ETC engine (thats what comes with slush boxes) works really well with a box. What the EZ gets you is timing and fueling enhancements, plus boost fooling. The latter is not quite as important with the HY becuase you can't (sensibly) run that puppy much over its wastegated configuration anyway. But you can disable the wastegate (many articles on this method) which will net you some additional boost (stock wastegate is about 26 lbs if memory serves; corrections please...) and then you have to fool the computer so its doesn't set an overboost code. the box will get you that.<br><br>getting back to the sensible upgrades for the ETH, my personal goal is to utilize the stock turbo (which is good to about 34 lbs boost and 350+ HP) and the natural limits of the drivetrain and engine cooling system. For example, you probably won't be able to use more than 350 HP on sustained pulls with a heavy trailer without overheating the engine itself (apart from EGTs which may be in control). Above 400 HP you start wondering about U joints and long term reliability. So for me, the limits of the HX35 hair drier are itself very appealing. EZ plus stage 2s I don't think will achieve 350 HP, but somewhere around 300-315 for an ETH. hook up the pump wire, and the comp on 5/5 with stage 2s and you'll push 400 (but this will require a new hair drier...)<br><br>My point is that if you want to run around empty and have as little fun from time to time, the stage 2s appear to be very attractive especially for the HOs. with EZ fueling, you'll be good to over 330+ HP and thats quite a few smiles indeed, even without major changes to the air system as long as you watch EGTs carefully and you're running empty. your drivetrain will stay happy, the U-joints wont dissintegrate, etc. put in a scotty II hush system for a real sweet spot of good air supply and low noise. you can even hook the pump wire up and have more fun (this will push 390 HP), and if you find EGTs to be problematic, then put in exhaust. If you find you're constantly getting on comp level 5/5 and want to make more use of available power by controlling EGTs, then replace the turbocharger to an HX40 (expensive).<br><br>But EZ plus 275s are going to be in the 290 HP range I think which is pretty respectable and lots o fun. you just might not be able to beat a stock 03 with that new (gas) hemi.

PourinDiesel

Ok.......<br>For stock HX35<br>DD1's and EZ are not the limit for fun driving, maybe for towing.<br><br>You can run an Edge Comp and DD2'/3's with a reasonable amount of safety for fun driving on occasions.<br><br>400rwhp is about tops for the stock HX35 charger with good amount of fueling.<br><br>--Justin<br><br>

CWICKHAM

THANKS ALOT

DarrellB

[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=4;threadid=7206;start=15#70075 date=1037821896]<br>Ok.......<br><br>400rwhp is about tops for the stock HX35 charger with good amount of fueling.<br><br>--Justin<br><br><br>[/quote]<br><br>I'm gonna have to find out. ;D <br><br>DB

doug

[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=4;threadid=7206;start=15#70075 date=1037821896]<br>Ok.......<br>For stock HX35<br>DD1's and EZ are not the limit for fun driving, maybe for towing.<br>[/quote]<br>perhaps. probably the EZ and 2's might be the limit for towing 10,000 pounds. But by &quot;limit&quot; we only mean that you won't be able to put your foot in the floor for 15 miles up a 9% grade pulling a 5'er. It only means that you have to watch your engine coolant temperature and ETGs, and drive 75 mph instead of 90 up that hill. Seriously just back off and drive by your gauges, thats all. I've heard of guys with comp boxes and 2's running on levels 1,2, or even level 3 when towing, but again the point is this: you can run on level 5 too, you just won't be able to use all that HP for a sustained pull. So guys will back down to level 3 or even level 1 (EZ fueling) because the in-cab control gives you that capability. And really, 99% of the time in my opinion (not validated of course) you won't even have the road and traffic conditions that will permit a full throttle pull on level 5 anyway, for any length of time, without a wreckless driving citation ;D<br>I run my comp in EZ mode and even that is at half mast (I'm still wastegated at stock, meaning that I have not put in the boost elbow yet). When running empty I have yet to run into a situation where I actually needed more power, although I have definately at times wondered what more fun I could have! <br><br><br>probably, although 3's are probably overkill in the sense that you'll need a hairdrier upgrade in order to use that much fueling. fuel economy might suffer because you'll smoke with that much fueling. Inded, an edge comp on level 5 with DDII's is like holy cow already! Personally, from my conversations and reading, I wouldn't daily drive with DDIII's. they're too smoky.<br><br>well, I want to preface my comments with the acknowledgment that I base my understanding on some very informative conversations with DD and Piers and lots o reading. I don't have injectors in my truck (yet!) I only have a comp with no pump wire connected. So no actual experience here yet. <br><br>Justin -- I meant to convey in my posts that 400 HP is really higher than the HX35 can safely go. For example, look at Jaimie's dually -- he's runs a comp on level 5 with an HX40 turbocharger and is still under 400 HP without nitrous. so just be careful not to expect 400 HP out of a stock HX 35. The principle reason for this is that the HX 35 efficiency map is exceed beyond about 34 lbs. My understanding is that you can plug the wastegate and get higher amounts of boost, but the HX 35 just cannot handle that much boost efficiently -- so you don't get the HP you expect out of 40+ pounds, for example. That, and the impellers will just disintegrate because they will be trying to spin well over 100,000 rpm. Piers told me to wastegate the stock HX35 at 32 pounds because above that you don't get anything other than higher EGTs and you risk impellers flying apart. <br><br>I'd say if you really want to chase 400 HP you'll have to change turbos and expect to loose some of the low-end spool-up performance (meaning tubo lag + more smoke) in favor of higher-rpm HP. <br><br>and, DB, I would really like to see some of this theory tested in practice. It sounds like you might be out to do this, so please let us know!

doug

you could very well be right. that would be a cool piece of info to know. After talking with Piers the other day I just got a real sense that at that level, things were seriously out of whack, and that you end up wasting a lot of HP. What really bugged my eyes out was the suggestion to wastegate the stock HX35 at 32-34 psi, both for its own protection and because of the efficiency thing. <br><br>makes you wonder why a boost gauge larger than 35 psi is really necessary unless you're committed a larger turbo.

CWICKHAM

anybody know anything about 300 marine injectors?

bdog

I am not positive but I believe the 300 marine injectors are for the 12 valve engines.