Installed TAG today
03-08-2004, 01:32 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Car_nut57
For most, the benefits of the TAG are quicker turbo spool up, quieter turbo, some EGT reduction and towing performance. Keep in mind not all trucks have the same results using the TAG and its performance is effected by many factors including the modifications done to the truck and driving habbits. This is why I basically make no claims about the TAG and provide information only.
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For most, the benefits of the TAG are quicker turbo spool up, quieter turbo, some EGT reduction and towing performance. Keep in mind not all trucks have the same results using the TAG and its performance is effected by many factors including the modifications done to the truck and driving habbits. This is why I basically make no claims about the TAG and provide information only.
.
03-08-2004, 01:42 PM
#34
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That's my point. I'm not alone. Quite a few HO's exhibit this symptom under these conditions. Mine did it with the stock air filter. It does it with the BHAF. If you look at the shape of the inlet air duct, the air is going to be hugging the outside wall of the duct as it enters the turbo - thus, one side of the impeller eye will tend to see more airflow than the other. In addition, under high airflow conditions, the air will want to "roll" as it comes out of the 180* bend. Therefore, the compressor impeller is likely struggling under these conditions, and transient surge is certainly a possibility.
FYI - I've seen the same phenomenon in large (36" inlet) natural gas centrifugal compressors where the inlet piping is somewhat convoluted. Flow straightening devices were required in many of those cases to correct the problem.
To reproduce this condition on a dynamometer would require a constant load dyno (e.g., eddy current or water brake) that could load the engine in a steady state condition. The inertia type dynos won't do it as the engine makes a transient climb through its operating range under load.
If you would like to carry on a technical discussion, I'd be glad to do that, time permitting. If you want to keep throwing the drive-by bombs (cut the double-talk, barfing in a bag, etc.), however, without getting into the meat of the matter, I really don't have the time or inclination for that.
Rusty
FYI - I've seen the same phenomenon in large (36" inlet) natural gas centrifugal compressors where the inlet piping is somewhat convoluted. Flow straightening devices were required in many of those cases to correct the problem.
To reproduce this condition on a dynamometer would require a constant load dyno (e.g., eddy current or water brake) that could load the engine in a steady state condition. The inertia type dynos won't do it as the engine makes a transient climb through its operating range under load.
If you would like to carry on a technical discussion, I'd be glad to do that, time permitting. If you want to keep throwing the drive-by bombs (cut the double-talk, barfing in a bag, etc.), however, without getting into the meat of the matter, I really don't have the time or inclination for that.
Rusty
03-08-2004, 02:26 PM
#35
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Constant load dyno's are the only way to get true results. We agree on that! - so find one! (directed at the manufactuer)
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
A manometer at the inlet of the turbo will tell you exactly how much the turbo is "struggling to get air"
Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it? If it does it is more likely that you are out of the efficiancy range of your turbo - not air inlet turbulance.
My "double talk" comments are more related to the seller not willing to do any tests but it aplys to anyone who just want to hide behind " the results may vary" blanket statement as a way to avoid doing any testing or discusing any real world resuts.
I am just waiting to hear somone explain how a little bit of turbulance can make very much of a differance or show some kind of controled unbiased test result.
TURBULANCE IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AIR RESTRICTION! Just need to get that straight with the people reading this thread. I think alot of peole are getting them confuesed.
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
A manometer at the inlet of the turbo will tell you exactly how much the turbo is "struggling to get air"
Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it? If it does it is more likely that you are out of the efficiancy range of your turbo - not air inlet turbulance.
My "double talk" comments are more related to the seller not willing to do any tests but it aplys to anyone who just want to hide behind " the results may vary" blanket statement as a way to avoid doing any testing or discusing any real world resuts.
I am just waiting to hear somone explain how a little bit of turbulance can make very much of a differance or show some kind of controled unbiased test result.
TURBULANCE IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AIR RESTRICTION! Just need to get that straight with the people reading this thread. I think alot of peole are getting them confuesed.
03-08-2004, 02:35 PM
#36
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Originally posted by chevy43
Constant load dyno's are the only way to get true results. We agree on that! - so find one!
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
Constant load dyno's are the only way to get true results. We agree on that! - so find one!
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it?
Rusty
03-08-2004, 02:43 PM
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Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it? If it does it is more likely that you are out of the efficiancy range of your turbo - not air inlet turbulance.
Just food for thought!
03-08-2004, 04:33 PM
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Sorry, Rusty. I DO appreciate you saving me the hassle of explaining to those who lack training or experience that the TAG is based on sound engineering principles.
The degree to which the TAG makes a difference is certainly debatable. But the science it's based upon is NOT.
I know Rusty to be a very knowledgeable and level-headed kind of guy. If someone aggravates him to the point where he bows out, it's pretty safe to say that the person would be out of line.
BTW-- though air is under 14.7psi (at sea level), this does NOT mean it will flow to the inside of the conduit. In fact, if there is ANY flow in a curved conduit, then there is velocity. If there is velocity, there is centripetal force. If there is centripetal force, then air is forced to the OUTSIDE of the bend in the conduit.
If there is no flow, then the pressure is equal at every point in the conduit-- 14.7psi.
One must remember the unique qualities air possesses as both an ELASTIC and COMPRESSIBLE fluid.
Justin
The degree to which the TAG makes a difference is certainly debatable. But the science it's based upon is NOT.
I know Rusty to be a very knowledgeable and level-headed kind of guy. If someone aggravates him to the point where he bows out, it's pretty safe to say that the person would be out of line.
BTW-- though air is under 14.7psi (at sea level), this does NOT mean it will flow to the inside of the conduit. In fact, if there is ANY flow in a curved conduit, then there is velocity. If there is velocity, there is centripetal force. If there is centripetal force, then air is forced to the OUTSIDE of the bend in the conduit.
If there is no flow, then the pressure is equal at every point in the conduit-- 14.7psi.
One must remember the unique qualities air possesses as both an ELASTIC and COMPRESSIBLE fluid.
Justin
03-08-2004, 04:50 PM
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What the two or you are missing is that it is a matter of degree. Put a manometer on the inside of the corner and mesure the presure. If all the air is on the outside of the corner then you should read a vaccum there. Now we know that won't be the case. If you had a manometer on the inside and the outside and compared the difference then you would know something. Yes there will be more air on the outside but it will be very little difference because the velocity of the air is way to slow to make much of a difference. A turbo won't even start making pressure till the compressor wheel is spinning upwards of 20,000 rpm before the centripital force beggins to do anything.
I'm not sure what Rustys problem is; can't handle other opinons?
The compressor inlet is only a bit over 2" and the hose feeding it is 4" as I recall on the Dodge so there isn't that much velocity in that hose. As I pointed out the TAG would not correct the problem of the bend in the intake hose anyway.
You guys need to start posting some well thought out points and consider all aspects.
I'm not sure what Rustys problem is; can't handle other opinons?
The compressor inlet is only a bit over 2" and the hose feeding it is 4" as I recall on the Dodge so there isn't that much velocity in that hose. As I pointed out the TAG would not correct the problem of the bend in the intake hose anyway.
You guys need to start posting some well thought out points and consider all aspects.
03-08-2004, 05:02 PM
#43
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Dodge dyno
Here is some dyno info directly from our site from one of the users of the TAG
"02, 2500, QC, 4x4, 30,000 miles, 3.54, LWB, DTT Tranny. TST PM3, DD2 Injectors, KSB-1B Turbo w/ TAG, DSS, BHAF, 4" Exaust, Mag-Hytec-nose, butt & belly, Isspro EV Gauges,Rancho 9000x.
"I did two back to back dyno runs - 3 pulls each. First without TAG; 2nd with TAG.
Results - From stop to 2500 rpm HP curve w/ TAG kicked in sooner and up to 10 hp more (on a 320 hp set up). This seems to verify reports, and my personal feeling, that turbo spools faster w/ a TAG. From 2500 to 2550 rpm the lines slowly converged. Above 2550 rpm - no gain or loss either way. Torque curve result was similar with convergence at 2600 rpm and no difference one way or the other above that.
I have also found, during a controlled back to back test on a 2 mile hill (4% grade) that with TAG, can hold a speed with slightly less boost than without (Tested at 60, 70 & 80 mph). Tested empty & at 8800 lbs. Boost difference was greater at gross wt! This tells me the engine operates more efficiently w/ the TAG than without even though there is no more HP. Would there be an even greater difference if towing heavy? I don't tow..so I can't test it. Anyone have a different interpretation of why less boost to hold set speed?"
Rowland
As I said before not everyhing revolves around dyno numbers. The TAG is about turbo efficiency, it is not going to yield chip like like numbers on the dyno. You can also see a dyno graph from a Ford on our site as well http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/tag
"02, 2500, QC, 4x4, 30,000 miles, 3.54, LWB, DTT Tranny. TST PM3, DD2 Injectors, KSB-1B Turbo w/ TAG, DSS, BHAF, 4" Exaust, Mag-Hytec-nose, butt & belly, Isspro EV Gauges,Rancho 9000x.
"I did two back to back dyno runs - 3 pulls each. First without TAG; 2nd with TAG.
Results - From stop to 2500 rpm HP curve w/ TAG kicked in sooner and up to 10 hp more (on a 320 hp set up). This seems to verify reports, and my personal feeling, that turbo spools faster w/ a TAG. From 2500 to 2550 rpm the lines slowly converged. Above 2550 rpm - no gain or loss either way. Torque curve result was similar with convergence at 2600 rpm and no difference one way or the other above that.
I have also found, during a controlled back to back test on a 2 mile hill (4% grade) that with TAG, can hold a speed with slightly less boost than without (Tested at 60, 70 & 80 mph). Tested empty & at 8800 lbs. Boost difference was greater at gross wt! This tells me the engine operates more efficiently w/ the TAG than without even though there is no more HP. Would there be an even greater difference if towing heavy? I don't tow..so I can't test it. Anyone have a different interpretation of why less boost to hold set speed?"
Rowland
As I said before not everyhing revolves around dyno numbers. The TAG is about turbo efficiency, it is not going to yield chip like like numbers on the dyno. You can also see a dyno graph from a Ford on our site as well http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/tag
Originally posted by chevy43
Constant load dyno's are the only way to get true results. We agree on that! - so find one! (directed at the manufactuer)
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
A manometer at the inlet of the turbo will tell you exactly how much the turbo is "struggling to get air"
Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it? If it does it is more likely that you are out of the efficiancy range of your turbo - not air inlet turbulance.
My "double talk" comments are more related to the seller not willing to do any tests but it aplys to anyone who just want to hide behind " the results may vary" blanket statement as a way to avoid doing any testing or discusing any real world resuts.
I am just waiting to hear somone explain how a little bit of turbulance can make very much of a differance or show some kind of controled unbiased test result.
TURBULANCE IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AIR RESTRICTION! Just need to get that straight with the people reading this thread. I think alot of peole are getting them confuesed.
Constant load dyno's are the only way to get true results. We agree on that! - so find one! (directed at the manufactuer)
If you put a manometer in the iside corner of your inlet tube you will see how much air there is. I would say otherwise you are just guessing that the air is huggine the outside of the tube and if that is the case the TAG isn't nessarly going to fix that.
A manometer at the inlet of the turbo will tell you exactly how much the turbo is "struggling to get air"
Does your truck have the 9cm housing on it? If it does it is more likely that you are out of the efficiancy range of your turbo - not air inlet turbulance.
My "double talk" comments are more related to the seller not willing to do any tests but it aplys to anyone who just want to hide behind " the results may vary" blanket statement as a way to avoid doing any testing or discusing any real world resuts.
I am just waiting to hear somone explain how a little bit of turbulance can make very much of a differance or show some kind of controled unbiased test result.
TURBULANCE IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AIR RESTRICTION! Just need to get that straight with the people reading this thread. I think alot of peole are getting them confuesed.
03-08-2004, 05:18 PM
#44
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A constant load dyno should be able to mesure efficiancy as well. It should be easy to tell by comparing EGT's and boost with and without the Tag at part throttle settings and using RPM's that would be common during towing. Just run two tests with and without the TAG and with the exact same throttle setting at the same RPM. Check EGT, Boost, and HP and you would have some publishable test results. Whats so hard about that?
Why don't you have somone run a test like that? I'm sure there are places that do this all the time for aftermarket products.
Why don't you have somone run a test like that? I'm sure there are places that do this all the time for aftermarket products.
03-08-2004, 05:27 PM
#45
Top's Younger Twin
Originally posted by chevy43
A good dynomometer can reproduce just about any loaded condition.
If I hear one more time about how none of this can be mesured I'm getting a bag to thow up in. 
A good dynomometer can reproduce just about any loaded condition. If I hear one more time about how none of this can be mesured I'm getting a bag to thow up in.
Yeah but they cannot give you real world air flow over the vehicle.
I went through this with a few folks 'in the know' claiming my Air intakes did not add power. I never claimed that yet they kept stating it. A good dynomometer can reproduce just about any loaded condition. Just about but not all thats for sure.
Take the truck down the road and see how the positive air flow over 40 MPH forces air into the cowl intake on a Scotty II or forces air into the front inlet on the RAM air 3 and folks will tell you they feel a difference, yet I still never claim that. I know this is off topic but a dyno does not cover all the bases.
We used a Super Flow in Calgary many times and it never gave what the real world did...sure you can factor in grades and speed but I have yet to see an accurate calculation of the frontal air resistance with a varying crosswind on a 5th wheel behind a Ram on a grade that changes often with traffic involved.
Sorry got off topic.
A friend who is an engineer looked at the TAG and next thing ya know he is measuring the HY-35 here and looking at pix of the TAG. He smiles and says...this has some merit. He has the calculator going and says it would definately help shape the flow of air. He also added results would definately vary depending on application.
I read about the spiral for the tractor...some of the folks I know that deal with different fluid applications said they were in Russia working on a water project and they put spirals in the 4ft diam pipe and they moved more volume faster then a straight pipe.
Just passing on some of the stuff my gray matter has stored.
I am not affiliated with George Foreman Grills in any way.
Car nut, PM me.
Scotty