Info moved to quick articles

 

Kinda reminds me of this thread.

http://www.dodge-diesel.org/yabbse/i...d=5624;start=0

We too have been thrashing hard to come up with a combo that will actually work right. 118 dyno runs between several trucks and many miles of testing over the road. We have spent literally 10's of thousands of dollars to get this off the ground. Last winter when we built our first set and dynoed them in the spring of this year we were very pleased in the performance. Plus 70HP and less smoke. The sets we dynoed this past week are making power close to a stage 3 injector and making very little smoke.
I feared that over time we would see many others try and build an injector like ours. We did try and keep it tight lipped, but some folks were told and we even posted the pick above.
Competition is a good thing though and we saw one of the multi-hole injectors from another vendor loose a ton of power and make massive amounts of smoke.

The road has been long for us and we have experienced a few failures with broken nozzle tips from weakening of the structure. With extra holes this is inherent in a nozzle tip with a wall thickness of just .6mm

Don~

 

Don, yours is 14 hole. The 24 Valve EDM's pictured above are 12 hole.

 

This sounds fascinating -- a new injector for the 2nd gens! So what fundamental problem are you guys addressing that exist in the current offerings now in the marketplace? <br><br>is it all about spray patterns and completness of combustion? You're out to grab an opportunity to improve burn efficiency? Have you any estimates as to the magnitude of the improvements you expect? Reading between the lines, and understanding the development costs involved, you must be expecting a substantial, measureable improvement. <br><br>As a potential customer, I want to know what your value statement is and why I should wait versus grabbing nstant gratification now with what's available in the marketplace today. Its great to be in the observers chair and watch things like this develop.<br><br>keep up the good work!

 

[quote author=Jack Thorpe link=board=7;threadid=7017;start=0#66877 date=1037313815]<br>Don, yours is 14 hole. The 24 Valve EDM's pictured above are 12 hole.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Jack,<br><br>Back last winter we made everything from a 8 hole up to a ?? hole for the 12 and 24 valve engines. For the past 6 months we have been changing all the parameters of the injectors from spray angles/patterns, rate of discharge curves, nozzle strengthening processes, etc. <br>The 14 hole nozzle we decided to release a picture of is currently in our testing phase with some good and bad results.<br>For example: We dynoed 2 sets of nozzles this past Sat afternoon that produced nearly the same power as a good stage 3 injector and made no more smoke than a stock injector with a fueling box set on a mild power setting. One of our sets did power a truck to over 600HP back in the late spring too ;D We are after very clean combustion, lower particulate matter, and longer injector life.<br>We are continuing to dyno and road test them heavily. <br><br>There is a real danger in nozzle sac and/or tip breakage from the extra holes punched in the already weakest nozzle that Bosch produces. VCO nozzles (12 and 24 valve type) have a wall tip dimension of just .6mm compared to the 1mm thick other types of mini-sac and sac type nozzles. What we experienced in our testing was one broken tip that caused severe engine damage and several tips out of the first 150 were showing stress risers that were not far from failure after very limited use. Injector cross-sections inspected macroscopically and microscopically revealed the troubles. Since we were cross sectioning the multi hole nozzles we decided to cross section many other types and brands of honed nozzles as well and found some very interesting things I have some disturbing pictures and data from thoose late winter inspections.<br> <br>The higher in-cylinder heat that is directly related to combusting a larger charge of fuel is partly responsible for the failures along with several other factors that we are not sharing because they are proprietary in nature. <br><br>For some history of our work: please see the website for Oxford Lasers in MA. Andrew Web of Oxford has worked with us in our endeavor last Feb. As well many other well known EDM shops around the country. We have actually contracted with 17 different EDM shops so far and finally three weeks ago purchased a very high precision EDM machine ( Charmilles) of our own to continue with R&amp;D in-house. The cost of developement was getting out of hand and costing weeks and weeks of time to get the work done. Now we do it all ourselves on the fly, so to speak. Our proprietary CAD/CAM drawings and data sheets are spread from the East to West coasts. I hope they are not begining to leak out. <br><br>As stated earlier, competition is not always a bad thing and we have very high confidence in the injectors we are now making from a safety, longevity and performance standpoint.<br>Just over a year of developement and we are begining to see the light at the end of the tunnel. <br><br>BTW, the CAD drawing I poped up in the last thread is a 10 hole nozzle. We have many types of nozzles for the Cummins and even the Powerstrokes on the road and being dynoed daily.<br><br>Don~ <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

 

I love it. Kinda reminds me of the industry I'm in. We are trying to lead the pack. Keep up the good work and keep us posted.

 

Anybody who's followed Don's posts over time on various forums (TDR and here to name 2) knows he is one sharp cookie (can cookies be sharp? ) Total confidence from me anyways that these injectors will be everything he says they will and more.....I can't wait for the production models to hit the ground-I'll be the guy standing near the front of the line waving his funny colored Canadian money around frantically! ;D <br><br>Jason

 

<br>Just pulling this back up top incase someone thinks it was deleted.<br><br>Trust me....Don Mis trying to make them the best they can be. <br>

 

Don,<br>You keep saying &quot;we&quot;? Who is the silent partner?<br><br>And, is it not in bad form to come in on another vendors thread, (or, a thread posted about another vendor,)and peddle your product?

 

What I would like to see is some straightforward disclosures. Those who work for, or in any form represent a business should state that affiliation in their signatures. Knowing if there is an affiliation helps us as consumers to make better judgments about the products discussed. I appreciate Don and Clint putting ATS under their names. Would others of you consider doing the same?<br>Thanks <br>

 

That is a great idea Edward, It lends a bit more credibility to an individuals statement when he includes enough information to make it easier for us to understand the business affiliation of the products.<br> Everybody has a different way of doing things and because of this we end up with a particular product that seems to really do it's intended job. Trial and error in competition has always benefited the consumer, and getting a peek inside the different stages of development can really open the eyes of the end user.<br> I know it would make it easier for me to follow along in these discussions as it tends to get a bit confusing at times.<br> Thanks to all you guys who are spending your money and time in development of these improved products!

 

Sled Puller,<br><br>Im not a vendor really. I have not sold any stuff to anyone yet and made any profit. A few sets of old used injectors here and there and I took an enormous loss in a few sets I have promised to others, but other than that my little vending has cost me thousands of dollars. Literally. As time goes by and we get the stuff developed, tested, etc. We will more than likely sell a few sets. <br>Oh, We= me, a biz partner, and all the collaborators from the local university that have worked on this project. As time permits we will come up with a biz name and you will see it around here and there. <br><br>GP,<br><br>I cant share anything really, except that the failure you know of is more likely than not related from the orginal metal being tempered wrong or a design flaw that got by the QC inspectors at Bosch. I have seen Cat injectors break a tip off on the test stand if the fuel was not flowing when they started the injector firing. The fuel really acts as a cushion to the needle when it slams into its seat. The CAT injectors are very hard. It is this extra hardness lends in them breaking easier without the cushion. Honing injectors lightly is done at the Bosch factory and a little more reasonable honing only helps to relieve stress risers and polish micro cracks in the material.<br><br>Don~

 

[quote author=Edward link=board=7;threadid=7017;start=0#70464 date=1037863112]
What I would like to see is some straightforward disclosures. Those who work for, or in any form represent a business should state that affiliation in their signatures. Knowing if there is an affiliation helps us as consumers to make better judgments about the products discussed. I appreciate Don and Clint putting ATS under their names. Would others of you consider doing the same?[/quote]

Knowing Don M ....... when he is actually up and running he will be more then happy to state as such. Right now hes jsut another person trying to create some interesting things for our hobby. The injectors are not for sale yet to the public. SO is he really a vendor? I would say no.....not yet, but its coming He wants them to be near perfection before they are relased for sale.

 

I commend you Don for your work on making a perfect product (or as close as humanly possible). I appreciate the endless work you have done on those injectors, and when you get it all done to your satisfaction make sure you post something big. I'll be the first in line for a set of those!!! ;D ;D ;D<br><br>-SFB