BARTMAN

New turbo is incredible, but I'm not doing the "system" justice with the RV275's. At Level 9, WOT, I'm only seeing 1100 degrees. Will Don's 1.5's complete this install? I defintely want to stay below 1400. What's the point in going so large you HAVE to back out of it without damage?

j-fox

They would be a good adition to your truck.

But, I'm afraid your missing the whole point.
Go big on injectors, then follow that with a bigger turbo, then find you need twins. Now you need more fuel to get the big turbo working real good.

Anything else?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BARTMAN

My previous setup (Hybrid HX) was really the bomb, except I could get the temps higher than I wanted them. Now, the push is exceptional, but temps are too low (1000 WOT). Never ending **** cycle. I refuse to go twins. Its not like I can really use the near 1000ft/lbs now. How many 22,000 lb trailers does one pull?

RowJ

If you have 275's now and get 1100* max...I would say the 1.6's from Don M would be a perfect addition for no EGT problems.

1.6's instead of 1.5's if you tow heavy.....it's my understanding they are to lattest technology (less smoke & lower EGT's) incorporated into the 1.5's. Your Mistress will love them!

RJ

Mike D

Does anyone know how Don establishes the HP rating for a particular Mach series injector? Is it with a stock truck and a boost fooler or does he use a Edge EZ or something similar?

BARTMAN

RJ,
Thanks for kicking in. Just what is this latest addition (addiction) going to set me back? I still have my studs to install (ARP; sitting on the bench. Read Don's testing of them and new once the HTB2 was installed, I needed them). What will my EGT difference be with these installed given "normal" conditions?
Installing the MTC tomorrow. Plan to set the boost at 42-45lbs max.

RowJ

I would expect a 1-200* increase in EGT's going to 1.6's....even with you going to 45 psi boost. It really depends on the condition of your 275's.

Don's injectors are much more efficient, IMO, and burn the fuel more completely. I think you would see a nice jump in power with no EGT problems....and very possibly less smoke.

RJ

Mike D

So, does anyone want to take a stab at my question?

caleb c.

I dont think you will have any EGT issues with the 1.6's. I tow constantly with 1.75's (95 hp) and have no problems at all, on a stock turbo. I keep the comp on 1x1 when towing, I havent noticed any egt drops with leaving the box low for timing like some have but I do it any way. I just try to pull the big hills at 70-75 mph and it stays perfectly cool. Towing at 60-65 it can get a tad warm so I just try to keep RPM's up.

Don M

The Mach 1, 1.5, 1.6, 1.75 and 2 are all tested and verified on a stock turbo on the ETC ( automatic trans ) trucks for minimum HP gains. Differing years were used, but mostly the 99 truck was the major test bed in the early stages. Now, all years and models have been tested.

If you have an ETH ( 6 speed HO truck ) the HP ratings are all about 15 to 20 HP higher. So the normal 105 HP, Mach 2 in the ETC will make about 120 HP in the ETH.

This is using a box similar to the Edge EZ or Power puck.
So, if the EZ gives you around 60 HP, you end up with 60 HP plus whatever the injectors are rated at.

Example: Stock ETC trucks generally will dyno at the rear wheels around 180-210 HP. Add the EZ and this will increase around 50 HP. Sometimes less, sometimes as much as 65, but typically we dont see a 65 HP increase in peak numbers with the EZ. Now you are around 240-260. Add a 90 HP injector and the numbers will increase by a minimum amount the injector is rated for. Now you are at 340 or so.

All the Machs are rated and tested at the rear wheels. Typically the gained HP at the rear wheels is a conservative number. You always get the minimum but most of the time you get more.

Without the EZ or Puck box, the injectors can add enough fuel to cause the factory defuel and the HP ratings will fall off. The EZ is needed for boost fooling. Yes, the injectors can make the rated power without an EZ. Marcos ECM is the great addition and you can skip the EZ and is a good compliment over the EZ.

The Mach 1's are the only exception. You wont set boost codes or need any boost fooling with them.

The Mach 3, 4 and up sizes all need supporting systems to make the best power. Larger turbo, more powerful boxes, etc.

The power rating on the larger injectors was tested the same way as above, but instead of just needing a small box like the EZ, you now need a larger turbo, a larger more powerful box and a good fuel system.

Example: The same ETC truck now with a full size B-1 turbo, a TST box and a fuel system like the mechanical conversion or the electric stuff that is out there will typically give up to and over 600 HP using a Mach 6.

Stock ETC truck at 200 HP again. Add a large turbo at around 50 HP, a TST box at its rated 130 HP and you are now at around 380. Add a Mach 6 at 220 HP and you will be in the neighborhood of 600. Sometimes more. Actually we never see a 130 HP from the TST, usually around 120. And some turbos might get you 40. Some less. But you are now at a point where these systems need one another to make the most power.

You cant take a Mach 6 and drop them in a stock truck and get the full 220. The fuel delivery in the injector is there to do it, but the pumping loss, the back pressure with the stock turbo and intake airflow is just not there. On the other hand you cant take a large turbo and install it on a stock engine and have a power gain either. It will be doggy and slow for the lack of heat energy from stock fueling levels.

When we tested, we did it using the typical scientific method. Long log books with thousands of entries, all tests were repeated in multiples of 3's, and the test criteria remained the same with no changes. These were the minimums. The Mach 1.5 for example was tested using 3 trucks. Over 150 dyno runs were made on the 1.5's alone. Conditions were held the same for the 3 comparative runs for each sesson. All fuel was standardized. If the engine warmed after the first dyno run, we waited for it to cool. We tried several turbo and box combinations and were able to keep logs of which direction the tests were taking us. This included smoke output testing on the road, towing, and 1/4 mile time trials to compare dyno data back to the 1/4 mile times in terms of HP gains.

Much more testing was involved, but the methods used are still classified and will remain that way. LOL.

All this was used to test a single injector style, spraying angle, number of holes and flow rate. Once we made tweaks to any of the above conditions, the testing generally had to start all over again. Logging all data and results again and trying to compare back to what we had earlier. Looking for a direction to go.

Over the last few years, we have made in excess of 1500 dyno runs on the Mach injectors alone. This does not include the Flux CR injectors and nearly 900 customers we have now whom many have contributed to the input of the project with their own dyno data and drag race results. Using the weight of their trucks with the 1/4 mile times and the dyno data they get, we are all very much in agreement in the results.

I can typically tell you exactly what a combination of parts currently available of turbos, boxes and injectors will make in terms of HP on a DynoJet or at the track. DynoJet was chosen from the start for its repeatability. It may not give the load needed to spool large turbo systems, but we need a repeatable test bed and if the load given from a larger dyno helps the HP for others and gives better results than we got....so much the better for everyone involved.
In other words, if we can make the HP on a non load dyno and it be repeatable, thats what we needed/wanted.

Remember, an injector is nothing more than a valve that opens and closes. They are simple devices, but its that last percentage of change that can make a huge difference in overall performance. That last percentage of change is a massive undertaking if you plan on doing it correctly. Change one thing and the results can vary wildly. Thoudsands of hours of testing is need. Hundreds of gallons of fuel. Many many exploded turbos and combinations of broken boxes. Scheduling. Etc, etc.

Don~

Mike D

Don, Thanks for taking the time to explain your testing methods. This helped me out a great deal.

I have been curious to know how any peformance injectors were rated/tested, wasn't trying to single F1 out in particular, hope it didn't come across that way.

Having never spoken to you personally, I was hoping someone who was already running your injectors might know the answer to my question.
I guess I hit the jackpot and got it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

I know a couple of people who run your injectors and make big power, but usually they are way beyond my level. I even got to drive a compound turbo'd truck with 4's. Needless to say it was fun.

In the end, I think I have a better understanding of how subjective the whole HP rating can be. Not every truck is set up the same, the only baseline many of us have experience with is a stock truck.



Thanks again.

mnengr

Thanks for you post DonM. I have just bought your mach 1's and am getting ready to install them, course now I'm already wondering what to do next, but am pondering the clutch...... So I'll be looking harder at the Mad ECM.....

Diesel-Dan

Is it just me? Or is anyone else darn glad that they have Mach injectors in their $5,000.00+ motor??!!??!! Thanks for the info Don......glad i went with the best.......

rebal

Its not just you, I love the way this truck runs now ,mach1.6s and the mad/ecm should be factory options! IM just glad someone smarter than me is doing there homework..Thanks Don ,Bob , marco and everyone else on DTR

AggiePhil

Great thread!