I know this is slightly off-topic, but ever think about a Nextel Don? They have a unlimited min plan in the range of $150/mo. Plus, I could beep ya!

Seriously now, I was beginning to wonder the other day if the heads & large injectors were worth the money I spent. Then I ran up against a problem at the dyno and Don did his best to help me out; even though it's been a year since I installed the parts. It helps to have a vendor out there that you can count on.

brandon.

 

Nextel, You mean No-tell.

Does Nextel have any better service in Texas than they do in the Buckeye? it wouldn't take much

thekingofofftopic,
Chris

 

Two very good points. People don't understand all the dynamics involved with an injection event in a pressurized cylinder, but they can see the "holes" in the nozzle tip. IMO too much emphasis is placed on "EDM" or "non-edm" or whatever nozzles. If they are used in modern high pressure injection systems, they are ALL initially manufactured using EDM . Every last one. EDM is just a drilling process. What the aftermarket does to modify them that is the difference.

I supplied some beta Duramax nozzles to a certain vendor on a chevy forum, he flow tested them using a test bench. Surprise, they flowed stock. Never tested them in the truck, because it's a lot of labor to swap Lb7 injectors. Same nozzles in a truck dyno 10 hp and 40 ft-lb over stock, no other changes, stock flow rate, everything looks the same to the naked eye, same size holes in the tip.

There is SO much more to manufacturing these things than simply drilling holes in a hunk of metal. It's not your garden variety machining. One of the more difficult specs to get right is the play between the needle and nozzle. Even OEM Bosch stuff is marginal at best in this area, because they are being built to a price. The OEM nominal dimensional tolerance spec for the needle/nozzle play in the higher pressure stuff (common rail or PDE) is less than 1 um (4000 metal atoms!) A thousanth is 40 microns. A certain Italian manufacturer I know achieves 1/100 of this spec on critical dimensions with their production stuff!!! It is not something that is easily accomplished.

The intermediate plate and nozzle seal should be less than 1 micron across the surface- you can't see 1 micron with the naked eye! There are very few machining tools that can consistently produce these kinds of microscopic tolerances, and for the injector nozzle manufacturing application they are very specialized (and expensive!) Even the measuring tools are very specialized and unique to this application.

Sure, they can make nozzles of marginal quality that seem ok at first, after all, aren't "performance" injectors SUPPOSED to make smoke and EGT? Fact is, even the alloys are not equal to OEM standards, so while they seat well at first, idle smooth, they wear quickly. The already marginal tolerances deteriorate quickly. If the heat treating is not done properly, the tolerances will change at operating temperature, also.

With the eBay nozzles mentioned in this thread, you WILL need to shim them to get the pop pressures to be close, and even then they probably won't flow the same. If you get lucky and get a set that are close at first, don't be surprised when you have to replace them prematurely. Shimming is a temporary bandaid solution, if you have good nozzles, they won't need it at all, they will be spot on. The difference between quality and cheezy is not discernible to the naked eye, but with the right tools and testing the difference is blatantly obvious.

I think people would be shocked to learn what they cost from China compared to the markup on them. If you really want them, wait, the price could go down to less than a quarter of the current price and there will still be a healthy profit for the seller. Maybe they're blowing these out to make room for a new product, why do you think they are allowing them to be sold on eBay? It's only a matter of time before there's a race to the bottom with price as all the eBay guys try to out each other.

Don is right, you can't get away with simply swapping nozzles with most of them, because typical cheap chinese nozzles are all over the place no matter what you do with the injectors, maybe you can't even get them to match with a lot of work. High profit for the vendor, and a false economy for the end user.

However, there ARE exceptions, high quality nozzles will make your injectors spot-on right out of the box simply by doing the swap. I've seen it hundreds of times, break pressures (for instance) all over the place on worn injectors, swap in new nozzles, BAM! they are all spot on.

If you are really curious, get some of these eBay injector nozzles, take them to get pop tested, then spend the money to get them shimmed. Test them again in 5k or 10K miles, see how far off they are. Like I said, you should not have to shim good nozzles. Why spend the money to shim your injectors every 10k miles, just get good stuff to start.

 

Great info Kerma!!!

This is what we need a technical discussion about how the injection system works and the what and why about changes that make differences in power.

Nextel coverage sucks in West Texas. I've about had it with Cingular and their new network. I hate to say it, but I miss analog. The reception was poor sometimes, but I could at least carry on a conversation for 50+ miles without being dropped. Nextel is probably OK in the metorplex.

 

Anyone care to comment on BD injectors? They too sell nozzels. They claim the EDM process too. For the money it will cost to get some nozzels, It seems crazy not to try em out. If they don't work out as I planned, I'm out less than $100, and probably 2 hours.

Heres the web page, also all the prices are downloadable.

http://www.bd-power.com/ram/product....jectors&tt=ram

 

THey are ALL made using EDM drilling. I tried to communicate in my prior post that:

JUST BECAUSE AN INJECTOR NOZZLE IS MANUFACTURED USING "EDM" DOESN'T MEAN IT'S HIGH QUALITY!

nearly EVERY seat-hole nozzle is made using EDM drilling for the spray holes. THere is no other way to do it and still have an even marginally satisfactory result (driven by emissions reasons primarily) at high injection pressures.

Saying "I have an EDM nozzle" is like saying "My truck has tires"

THat said, NOT ALL EDM IS CREATED EQUAL...

THe trouble is, the significant dfifferences are microscopic, and not apparent to the casual and untrained observer. It's easy for vendors to pass off nearly ANYTHING as "quality", how will you know the difference?

 

I cant comment on the Ebay nozzles, but the BD nozzles are not made in China.


We all realize that the way the nozzle is first made is by an EDM process. The way nozzles are modified it what is in question. Many performance nozzles are stock nozzles which are further enlarged by the extrude hone process. This process, while enlarging the holes, does also create the undesirable effect of rounding the entrance and exit to each hole. This is not favorable for atomization, as the sharp entry and exit edges help shear the droplets and improve atomization.

Hows about someone how buys the BD nozzles has their injectors tested after you put them back together. I wish I would have done mine so I could chime in with the information.

I will say this though, I have measured each cylinder EGT while at about 65% power while on a steady state water brake dyno and the variation from the hottest to the coolest was less than 50°F. My idle is perfect and there is no discernable idle smoke (except when its 5°F in the winter, but then it did that with he RV275's too).



Kevin

 

I read somewhere that EDM process is getting phased out. There is going to be new restrictions put on diesel and some manufacturers are going to lasers to "drill" holes in the injectors.

The laser can drill smaller holes, faster. (Smaller does mean less fuel, but maybe drill 12 holes instead of the standard 8. That could possibly mean better fuel atomization and hydraulically flow the same as a "regular EDM" injector)

Their laser can drill a hole in 1 second or less, compared to 12 second or longer that takes an EDM machine to drill a hole. (Potential cost savings passed on to the consumer?) Also the laser does the job without using the consumables that an EDM machine uses. (Also more potential to pass on cost saving to the consumer)

Read page #4. There is some great info there.

Whoops the link would help.

http://www.lambdaphysik.com/pdf/pdf_225.pdf

Go to products and click on micro drilling.

http://metalase.com/


Justin "Just thinking outside the box"

 

We already use a copper vapor laser for drilling some of common rail nozzles. We dont own the machine ( millions of bucks ) so the work is subbed out to a pioneer in laser hole drilling. We lasered the first sets 3 years ago.

Yes, you can turn the current up and drill a hole in under 12 seconds with EDM, but it forms a hole that is pretty rough. Not something we want. Smooth surface fnishes take a longer time. We use a Microfin power supply that we actually had modified to use an even lower current and power level. It makes a super super clean hole. Surface finshes are mirror like.

Not only that...we rotate the electrode at high speed to end up with a very round hole. A non rotationg electrode can be slightly curved in the microscopic level and cause a hole to be ovate or eliptical. We also designed a fixture that will hold the smallest amount of electrode protruding from the holder. This is because the microscopic vibration caused by using electric current can make a long electrode vibrate the hole larger than you wanted. Many little tricks are used to drill a hole the consistant diameter thousands of time back to back.

I have watched a fast hole drill actually pop a hole in seconds at the depth we drill
(1mm) but we can take up to 10 minutes per hole. Slowness is next to godliness in EDM hole drilling when you need exacting tolerance.

Don~

 

Don,
Maybe there is a trick to finding your site, but I have not found it. How about a link? I see your posts all over the place, but there is nothing in your sig about your products or company.

Where do you advertize? Under what name?

Thanks,

-Dave

 

http://www.f1diesel.com/