highest EGT*
06-03-2006, 12:13 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Bart Timothy
herb,
I've seen what happened to your truck before, and so I ask, again, what boost, rpm and coolant temps were you running when this happened? Did you notice anything different about the rod bearings?
Bart
I've seen what happened to your truck before, and so I ask, again, what boost, rpm and coolant temps were you running when this happened? Did you notice anything different about the rod bearings?
Bart
coolent temps 200 - 210 by oem dash gauge
rpms @ normall 65 mph 2000 rpm
egt's cruising on the flat 950 degrees 1250 pulling heavy uphill ,would go higher if we let it pull hard, but we get out of it at 1250 degrees
06-03-2006, 08:40 PM
#32
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Hey I melted my firewall isolation pad, wiring harness and pyro wire. Everything made a nice bloob of gop. Can came close to having a fire. My pyro died and the rest is history. One wreaked cummins motor was the result.
06-05-2006, 08:53 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by herb
So if I am understanding correctly, even the small (65 hp gain) Edge effects the timing enough to cause piston failure when using vehicle predominatly for a heavy tow vehilce ?
Your piston failure may have been caused by other things, including an obstruction of the piston-cooling oil squirters that your engines are very dependent upon.
If those squirters are plugged or missing (the plastic ones have been known to fall out), then a bone stock engine will melt at light load.
Timing should be retarded as boost comes up. Advanced timing is for LIGHT LOAD/LOW BOOST ONLY!
This, to me, is why the Smarty is so much superior to an add-on timing box like an EZ. The EZ's timing program is pretty stupid. It is basically along the lines of "look at the stock timing and advance it 3 degrees", from what I understand. If that's the case, then there are plenty of cases where the Stock ECM would retard timing to as boost comes up. But with the EZ or VA or anything else like them, the engine will never see less timing than the most retarded Stock Timing-- PLUS the advance of the add-on.
A Smarty still allows full timing retard, from what I understand, and thus would imo be much safer at higher loads if this is true. The engine MUST be allowed to retard timing fully at high loads with high boost, and an add-on timing box with it's "dumb logic" simply can't allow this, as far as I know. Maybe someone who knows more about the EZ's timing algorithm could correct me.
So, for REALLY heavy loads, you could just program in a "no timing" software from the Smarty and be perfectly safe, even if you'll have higher EGT at some points.
More specifically, use #9 or #7 for running empty, then program in #2 or #4 for towing heavy.
Combined with a TST box, you'll have no added timing, and plenty of fuel. It might get smoky (depending on injectors), and the EGT will be hotter, but you can control those with your foot.
Bruce Mallinson is well-known (and sometimes criticized) for stating "NEVER advance the timing on a diesel". I would disagree, but only insofar as adding the qualifier of a "working/towing diesel". So "never advance the timing on a working/towing diesel".
At light loads and low boost, advanced timing can give a lot of benefits and it perfectly safe. You'd be surprised just how radical a timing could be run in this case.
But once the load increases and boost comes up, you have to get off the timing advance and back into the "normal" range.
Truth be told, the stock timing profile is on the "retarded" side already for emissions purposes, so a mild amount of timing addition even at full load is probably not only safe, but recommended.
But the line separating "optimal" from "excessive" gets thinner as boost comes up and loads increase. Think of it like going to visit the Grand Canyon. The closer you get to the edge, the better your view-- but you don't want to fall!
In Herb's case (barring piston oil squirter failure), the combination of advanced timing, SUSTAINED heavy workload, and restrictive HY35 turbo (and and its excessive drive pressure) may have been enough to cross the line of safety.
JMO
06-05-2006, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HOHN
There's no clearcut answer.
Your piston failure may have been caused by other things, including an obstruction of the piston-cooling oil squirters that your engines are very dependent upon.
If those squirters are plugged or missing (the plastic ones have been known to fall out), then a bone stock engine will melt at light load.
Timing should be retarded as boost comes up. Advanced timing is for LIGHT LOAD/LOW BOOST ONLY!
This, to me, is why the Smarty is so much superior to an add-on timing box like an EZ. The EZ's timing program is pretty stupid. It is basically along the lines of "look at the stock timing and advance it 3 degrees", from what I understand. If that's the case, then there are plenty of cases where the Stock ECM would retard timing to as boost comes up. But with the EZ or VA or anything else like them, the engine will never see less timing than the most retarded Stock Timing-- PLUS the advance of the add-on.
A Smarty still allows full timing retard, from what I understand, and thus would imo be much safer at higher loads if this is true. The engine MUST be allowed to retard timing fully at high loads with high boost, and an add-on timing box with it's "dumb logic" simply can't allow this, as far as I know. Maybe someone who knows more about the EZ's timing algorithm could correct me.
So, for REALLY heavy loads, you could just program in a "no timing" software from the Smarty and be perfectly safe, even if you'll have higher EGT at some points.
More specifically, use #9 or #7 for running empty, then program in #2 or #4 for towing heavy.
Combined with a TST box, you'll have no added timing, and plenty of fuel. It might get smoky (depending on injectors), and the EGT will be hotter, but you can control those with your foot.
Bruce Mallinson is well-known (and sometimes criticized) for stating "NEVER advance the timing on a diesel". I would disagree, but only insofar as adding the qualifier of a "working/towing diesel". So "never advance the timing on a working/towing diesel".
At light loads and low boost, advanced timing can give a lot of benefits and it perfectly safe. You'd be surprised just how radical a timing could be run in this case.
But once the load increases and boost comes up, you have to get off the timing advance and back into the "normal" range.
Truth be told, the stock timing profile is on the "retarded" side already for emissions purposes, so a mild amount of timing addition even at full load is probably not only safe, but recommended.
But the line separating "optimal" from "excessive" gets thinner as boost comes up and loads increase. Think of it like going to visit the Grand Canyon. The closer you get to the edge, the better your view-- but you don't want to fall!
In Herb's case (barring piston oil squirter failure), the combination of advanced timing, SUSTAINED heavy workload, and restrictive HY35 turbo (and and its excessive drive pressure) may have been enough to cross the line of safety.
JMO
Your piston failure may have been caused by other things, including an obstruction of the piston-cooling oil squirters that your engines are very dependent upon.
If those squirters are plugged or missing (the plastic ones have been known to fall out), then a bone stock engine will melt at light load.
Timing should be retarded as boost comes up. Advanced timing is for LIGHT LOAD/LOW BOOST ONLY!
This, to me, is why the Smarty is so much superior to an add-on timing box like an EZ. The EZ's timing program is pretty stupid. It is basically along the lines of "look at the stock timing and advance it 3 degrees", from what I understand. If that's the case, then there are plenty of cases where the Stock ECM would retard timing to as boost comes up. But with the EZ or VA or anything else like them, the engine will never see less timing than the most retarded Stock Timing-- PLUS the advance of the add-on.
A Smarty still allows full timing retard, from what I understand, and thus would imo be much safer at higher loads if this is true. The engine MUST be allowed to retard timing fully at high loads with high boost, and an add-on timing box with it's "dumb logic" simply can't allow this, as far as I know. Maybe someone who knows more about the EZ's timing algorithm could correct me.
So, for REALLY heavy loads, you could just program in a "no timing" software from the Smarty and be perfectly safe, even if you'll have higher EGT at some points.
More specifically, use #9 or #7 for running empty, then program in #2 or #4 for towing heavy.
Combined with a TST box, you'll have no added timing, and plenty of fuel. It might get smoky (depending on injectors), and the EGT will be hotter, but you can control those with your foot.
Bruce Mallinson is well-known (and sometimes criticized) for stating "NEVER advance the timing on a diesel". I would disagree, but only insofar as adding the qualifier of a "working/towing diesel". So "never advance the timing on a working/towing diesel".
At light loads and low boost, advanced timing can give a lot of benefits and it perfectly safe. You'd be surprised just how radical a timing could be run in this case.
But once the load increases and boost comes up, you have to get off the timing advance and back into the "normal" range.
Truth be told, the stock timing profile is on the "retarded" side already for emissions purposes, so a mild amount of timing addition even at full load is probably not only safe, but recommended.
But the line separating "optimal" from "excessive" gets thinner as boost comes up and loads increase. Think of it like going to visit the Grand Canyon. The closer you get to the edge, the better your view-- but you don't want to fall!
In Herb's case (barring piston oil squirter failure), the combination of advanced timing, SUSTAINED heavy workload, and restrictive HY35 turbo (and and its excessive drive pressure) may have been enough to cross the line of safety.
JMO
First thing is that the Edge box does not change any timing. It raises fuel pressure only. Has the truck had bigger injectors put in or are they still stock? My guess is that the truck has bigger injectors and is dumping to much fuel in the motor.
Thanks
Jon Hoppis Jr.
www.cmpchips.com
06-06-2006, 08:46 AM
#38
Registered User
One of the first thoughts which went through my head with herb's engine failure was the oil cooling nozzles being plugged. But the fact that this has happened twice, on two separate cylinders, makes me wonder about it being the cause. Can't imagine Cummins not checking them out, especially twice in a row.
There are plenty of EZ boxes, which have less timing advance, out there. They have a Diesel Dynamics logo on them. This EZ timing advance issue has been debated since day one...over five years now.
herb's engine coolant temps at 210 may be saying something. As coolant temps go up, max egts need to come down. 28 to 31 lbs of sustained boost at 2000 rpm from a hy35 is pushing things pretty hard.
There are plenty of EZ boxes, which have less timing advance, out there. They have a Diesel Dynamics logo on them. This EZ timing advance issue has been debated since day one...over five years now.
herb's engine coolant temps at 210 may be saying something. As coolant temps go up, max egts need to come down. 28 to 31 lbs of sustained boost at 2000 rpm from a hy35 is pushing things pretty hard.
06-06-2006, 05:59 PM
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the only time i will reach the 28 lb boost is pulling long grades , but i am watching gauges closley and do not let egt's , engine temps go High without getting out of the throttle. Actually when i am climing grades i will usually crest at 45-50 mph , never pushing it hard.
Response from Edge
First thing is that the Edge box does not change any timing. It raises fuel pressure only. Has the truck had bigger injectors put in or are they still stock? My guess is that the truck has bigger injectors and is dumping to much fuel in the motor.
Response from Edge
First thing is that the Edge box does not change any timing. It raises fuel pressure only. Has the truck had bigger injectors put in or are they still stock? My guess is that the truck has bigger injectors and is dumping to much fuel in the motor.
06-06-2006, 06:31 PM
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"The Power Edge EZ is a plug-in module that maximizes engine efficiency by monitoring the RPM, timing, turbo boost pressure and fueling parameters. The module uses this information to determine and control both fueling and timing enhancements for the Bosch fuel injection pump."
From Edges website
Randy
From Edges website
Randy
06-06-2006, 11:57 PM
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And for the 3rd gens Edge's page says:
They must have made a mistake and thought Herb had a 3rd gen =\
Originally Posted by Edge
The Edge EZ module unleashes the potential of this monster by carefully monitoring RPM, turbo boost pressure and fueling parameters and adjusting fueling to maximize power, torque and driveability.
06-07-2006, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph4tty
And for the 3rd gens Edge's page says:
They must have made a mistake and thought Herb had a 3rd gen =\
They must have made a mistake and thought Herb had a 3rd gen =\
06-08-2006, 01:09 PM
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Herb my guess is that the EZ doen't raise timing over what the ecm max parameter is set at' because it doen't tap the wire. For example max ecm timing16* EZ will never get timming past that, but when a non EZ truck would be running say 10* the EZ is telling ecm, by means of changing sensor outputs it should be at max 16* such as on a long steep grade with 28psi boost, 1200* egt, water temp 210* ambient air temp 100*F. Ecm amy be thinking timming 8* but EZ is changing what the ecm is seeing making it think engine is not loaded as much so it can safely advance timing too optimize effiency, which is not actully the case. these are just numbers I pulled out of my butt I have no idea what the ecm timing maps look like just an example.
I agree with Hohn the smarty may be a better choice for towing, for the simple fact you can add pressure and duration,but no timming.
Jed
I agree with Hohn the smarty may be a better choice for towing, for the simple fact you can add pressure and duration,but no timming.
Jed
06-25-2006, 10:35 PM
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Just got the 01 back from the body shop. It fell thru a drain pit cover at our local car wash (replaced front bumper and repainted both front fenders.)
drove it home (15 miles with 0 fuel pressure , this is the new one that was put on when engine was rebuilt 4500 miiles ago)
Ordering a fass tommorrow.
Guess i will pull the edge but know i will be staved for power pulling the gooseneck.
Just returned from a trip with the 03 and the 46' gooseneck . went to Branson, Jasper and Liberty Hill Tx back thru Memphis and picked up a load of trailers ( 2 car haulers and 4 16' utilitys ) and the 03 pulls great with no problems except for the 9 mpg.
drove it home (15 miles with 0 fuel pressure , this is the new one that was put on when engine was rebuilt 4500 miiles ago)
Ordering a fass tommorrow.
Guess i will pull the edge but know i will be staved for power pulling the gooseneck.
Just returned from a trip with the 03 and the 46' gooseneck . went to Branson, Jasper and Liberty Hill Tx back thru Memphis and picked up a load of trailers ( 2 car haulers and 4 16' utilitys ) and the 03 pulls great with no problems except for the 9 mpg.