kawi600

I blew the head gasket merging onto the highway. Its pissing coolant under the exhaust manifold on the rear cylinder. Doesnt seem to be inhaling anything or contaminating with oil though. I just had a cam put in so im still paying that off, argh. That wasnt cheap by a long shot, too. Oh well, self-inflicted wound there.

From someone thats had this job done at a shop, whats a typical bill for orings, gasket and arp studs? I think he will recommend using the stock studs with a little more torque but Id rather do it all now than later.
Id look into some porting but thats probably overkill for me just yet.

Hayseed

Good luck and I really mean it! That is exactly where my 97 head CRACKED. A new one was a cool grand. I had much more than that in it though because the shop checked the head and said it was OK. New marine gasket, studs, and other stuff, ebrake...$4000.00. Then it still leaked. Another $1500.00 including the head and everything is all better. Make sure they magnaflux the head, it is much simpler to do the new head the first time. Check check and recheck!

kawi600

Im pretty sure my local diesel shop recommends magnaflux while its being checked for level and o-ring grooves cut.
He claims hes had good results with new gasket, cranked down stock studs and no orings, for trucks at my power level. Im not sure whether to take the chance on the labor to save some bucks on parts or go for orings and studs.
Sounds like some folks have had sealing issues either way.

Jetpilot

To do a valve job, deck, new seals and replace worn guides you are looking at around $900-$1000. Studs will run you another $400 or so. Gasket, well depends on what you use. The best one I have run is a modified 12v gasket which can be purchased for around $175. Then you have labor, to do it right is time consuming to R&R the head, haul the head to the machine shop, pick up, tap for studs, and then do the necessary re-torques. Plan on around $1000+ for this. You will also have coolant, oil, filter, and a few other added expenses.

Total will probably be around $2500-$3000

Jetpilot

I just saw you are in the Boston area, give Massdiesel a call @ 508.660.7093. They do excellent work and are right in your neck of the woods (Walpole, MA).

kawi600

yeah Scott's doing the work for me. He gets all my business. Im just waiting on an email back with a quote. I was hoping for some opinions about the merits of going with a stock gasket and overtorqued stock studs versus o-ringing. He recommends a stock setup since I dont plan to exceed 55psi for awhile.
I just had the timing turned down a notch to avoid this happening too.. urgh.

Jetpilot

Personally I use a max of 40 psi boost for a 12v or 24v truck without o-rings. I have seen some hold more but @ 40 almost all are safe if allowed to warm completely up rpior to pushing the engine.

One thing to remember its cylinder pressure not boost pressure that pops a HG......

Doug

JJPage

Ok, explain please. If it is cylinder pressure, why then does everyone worry about high boost pressure?

I know there is a corelation, but I do not understand it.The higher the boost, the higher the cylinder pressure?

What is the max tq for stock 3rd gen head bolts?

Thanks in advance, Jess

Fergavs

Increased cylinder pressure is caused from high boost and lots of timing. The extra timing will add cylinder pressure because the fuel is exloding earlier in the stroke so it has to compress the exlosion after it has started causing increased cylinder pressure. Obviously there are other contributing factors such as tons of fuel, high drive pressures, or drugs( mater meth, n20).

Fueling around

Don't waste your money porting or even o-ringing a stock head. When you pour that much cash into mods you are much better off using the beefier after market head.

What is a stock stud? If you mean head bolts, get some stock diameter studs.

I paid $1,600 for a complete head re-con, 60# valve springs, A-1 studs & labor. This shop does everything IN-HOUSE which saved around $500 on the bill plus 2-3 days of out sourcing.
I also installed a Turbo-master to prevent the boost from exceeding 40 psi the next time I smoke out an (expletive deleted) driver.

Over heating is the #1 head gasket killer with advanced timing a close #2 followed by high boost.

edit
BTW, 17° is not advanced timing on a 95 pump unless those injectors have sloppy pop off.

kawi600

hmmmm.. thats some food for thought.
I see you can get a complete cummins head for 900$ or so.. but why not re-use the existing head if its functional? theres about 200$ into the magnaflux + deck, and 300 for o-ring grooves. Orings are a good idea in this range especially since I have that cam on the truck. I dont think the valve seats will be that bad, this is an iron block after all.
My mechanic says he can get stock bolts to 130ft-lb. Clamping force is clamping force, but I think they may stretch more. Ill go with studs.
DDP2 injectors these should be in good shape with only 2k on them
I had 18 degrees, guess I should have stayed there.
Turbo is still wastegated to 45psi from industrial.

Mike Holmen

Why do you need a new head? Have you checked for leaking valves? I would just put in a new head gasket and put another 100000miles on it. Who does aftermarket head? I thought the is only head available from cummins , just different grades in quality? I would put the price around $150 to $200 dollars, just buy a new head gasket. Air horn gasket, turbo gasket.I don't even pull the injectors out or take off the exhaust manifold. I bet 4 to 6hrs, your running again. Stock head stud trucks are easy, no arp studs to fight with.

kawi600

Theres the replacement cummins heads and the china junk. Not sure what else is out there.
I agree with re-using the head, so long as the magnaflux comes up with no cracks.
I think im going to spend the extra 700 or so on orings and studs. I cant imagine that a stock setup with overtorqued bolts will hold even 50psi for long.
Those stock bolts may stretch under load and cause me another headgasket failure. Maybe you can get them down to 130ft-lb but how long do they stay there?
yeah the job isnt so bad, hes billing 8 hours but it will probably take 6 or so.

I wish I had a way to get to the shop while its all apart so I can throw some high-heat paint on everything, but thats my only wheels right now =(

Mike Holmen

I just do an air seal test. I pressurize the intake and discharge side with compressed air. If you get air bypassing the valves, you have a crack or a bad valve. I get most of my parts from cummins. I think the cummins head comes from Brazil. Cummins is one international global company.

Fueling around

I cannot find my photos that show the improvements on the after market head. You can get one from Cummins and other sources. The importer (from Brazil) is a company in Minnesota.
The guy that does Mike's porting work said the after market cast is much better than a stock head.
The bosses are much larger on the aftermarket around the perimeter and the bolt lands.
If you drop $300 for o-ring and $500 for porting the new head doubles the cost.
My stock head required all new exhaust valve guides plus a full valve grind.
The only cost that is universal for a stock head versus a new head is planing.

I will show you a NEW Cummins head bolt that broke on initial torque to spec.



Luckily it broke above the deck so they could use the welding rod fusion retrieval.

The cost of studs is not much more than a new set of head bolts. If you go with A-1 studs you don't have to drop the money to machine your rocker towers. IMHO, that was really a stupid decision for ARP to shorten their studs to avoid a basically free mod of die grinding the rockers covers versus an expensive machining of the rocker towers. I only had one stud that didn't seat fully due to a shallower thread cut.

A complete head job will run around 8-12 hours. It takes about 2 hours alone to remove the injectors line, re-torque the studs, install the lines, and bleed.

My advice, your money.