Fuel temps ( a little long)
06-25-2006, 11:33 AM
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Fuel temps ( a little long)
Yesterday was the perfect day for an experiment I've been looking to do.
Drove from the Chilliwack B.C. to Calgary Alberta yesterday in 100 degree temps and did a fuel temp experiment. I don't normally drive the highway this way but decided to beat the truck a little and see what it does/happens.
I've equipped my truck with a temp guage on the return line on the t fitting where the return line from the VP and the back of the head join.
Anyone here that has ever driven the Coquihalla highway thru the interior of B.C. will know the demands it puts on your truck. It will take you out during the heat months if your cooling system, etc is not up to par. I've seen many cars and trucks burn to the ground on the Snowshed hill after a major overheat.
These are the readings that I found............
96 degrees, 1/2 tank of fuel leaving Hope, B.C. Fuel temps returning to the tank are averaging about 120 degrees after being in traffic at highway speeds (70 mph) for the last hour.
Climbing into the Coquihalla, mainly the first of the big climbs, maintaining 70 mph and about 800-900 EGT's, fuel temps climbed to 140 degrees.
Hitting the Snowshed hill, I decided to really hammer on it. Maintaining 80 mph, 1100 EGT's, outside temps are now at 101 degrees. Fuel temps soared to 165 degrees in the return line!!!!!
After pulling the hill, and even travelling a good 20-30 miles past it, the fuel temps take a long time to come down. I pulled into Merritt B.C. to fuel up. When I pulled up to the pump at the cardlock, fuel temps were 150 degrees on about 3/8 of a tank.
This was the other part of the experiment......
Watching the temp guage while I fueled, truck running, guage lost 5 degrees sitting there with a fresh full tank of cool fuel. After fueling, went next store and had lunch while I left the truck running. Came back 30 minutes later and temps had only dropped 10 degrees to 140 degrees.
It took over an hour of driving to get it back down the 120 degrees.
All this was done with about 1000 lbs of payload and no towing. If your going to run the hills towing, do it with a full tank!!!!
On to part 2 of the experiment......I'll let you know, I have a 16 row fan equipped cooler sitting here with a bunch of fuel hose beside it just waiting to be installed.
I hope any or all of this helped someone, just thought I'd pass my findings on.
Jeff
Drove from the Chilliwack B.C. to Calgary Alberta yesterday in 100 degree temps and did a fuel temp experiment. I don't normally drive the highway this way but decided to beat the truck a little and see what it does/happens.
I've equipped my truck with a temp guage on the return line on the t fitting where the return line from the VP and the back of the head join.
Anyone here that has ever driven the Coquihalla highway thru the interior of B.C. will know the demands it puts on your truck. It will take you out during the heat months if your cooling system, etc is not up to par. I've seen many cars and trucks burn to the ground on the Snowshed hill after a major overheat.
These are the readings that I found............
96 degrees, 1/2 tank of fuel leaving Hope, B.C. Fuel temps returning to the tank are averaging about 120 degrees after being in traffic at highway speeds (70 mph) for the last hour.
Climbing into the Coquihalla, mainly the first of the big climbs, maintaining 70 mph and about 800-900 EGT's, fuel temps climbed to 140 degrees.
Hitting the Snowshed hill, I decided to really hammer on it. Maintaining 80 mph, 1100 EGT's, outside temps are now at 101 degrees. Fuel temps soared to 165 degrees in the return line!!!!!
After pulling the hill, and even travelling a good 20-30 miles past it, the fuel temps take a long time to come down. I pulled into Merritt B.C. to fuel up. When I pulled up to the pump at the cardlock, fuel temps were 150 degrees on about 3/8 of a tank.
This was the other part of the experiment......
Watching the temp guage while I fueled, truck running, guage lost 5 degrees sitting there with a fresh full tank of cool fuel. After fueling, went next store and had lunch while I left the truck running. Came back 30 minutes later and temps had only dropped 10 degrees to 140 degrees.
It took over an hour of driving to get it back down the 120 degrees.
All this was done with about 1000 lbs of payload and no towing. If your going to run the hills towing, do it with a full tank!!!!
On to part 2 of the experiment......I'll let you know, I have a 16 row fan equipped cooler sitting here with a bunch of fuel hose beside it just waiting to be installed.
I hope any or all of this helped someone, just thought I'd pass my findings on.
Jeff
06-25-2006, 12:04 PM
#2
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That's a really interesting test. I would love to monitor the fuel temp immediately before it enters the VP44, just to see how much heat it picks up on its way from the tank, and also to see how much the tank heats up on a long trip. I have noticed that Duramax trucks come factory-equipped with a fuel cooler in the return line, so there may really be something to gain. Keep us posted.
You picked a great road for the test. It's good the weather cooperated.
You picked a great road for the test. It's good the weather cooperated.
06-25-2006, 01:12 PM
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That is interesting, any information on at what fuel tempature it could cause a problem. What, if any, fuel additives do you use?
I suspect that here in the sun baked Arizona, where my tranny temp is 160 to 175*F just setting outside in the sun, I would guess fuel temp would be in the 120's or so.
Running the hills as you did your EGT's seem low. Mine will go to 1300, climbing hill's with OD locked out and TC locked up. Probe is pre turbo.
I suspect that here in the sun baked Arizona, where my tranny temp is 160 to 175*F just setting outside in the sun, I would guess fuel temp would be in the 120's or so.
Running the hills as you did your EGT's seem low. Mine will go to 1300, climbing hill's with OD locked out and TC locked up. Probe is pre turbo.
06-25-2006, 01:33 PM
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I do run a fuel additive. I run a double dose of Milligan Bio-Tech, it's basically corn oil, made up here in Saskatchewan.
My EGT's can go way higher, believe me. I've just learned to drive by the pyro when humping big hills. I just get it to where I want it and slightly back off, my EGT's respond by just staying there. I had every opportunity to melt the needle if I wanted to. Towing can get out of control even faster if I don't pay attention.
Before this run, I did have the guage on the return line right out of the VP. It stayed at a fairly constant 120-130 degrees but would climb on a good pull (I was towing about 5000lbs at the time).
I'll drop the guage on the input line to the VP and see what she says. I can almost guarantee that they will be up in the 120-130's easily. As good as a heat sink a tank of fuel is, once it's warm, it will stay warm.
Jeff
My EGT's can go way higher, believe me. I've just learned to drive by the pyro when humping big hills. I just get it to where I want it and slightly back off, my EGT's respond by just staying there. I had every opportunity to melt the needle if I wanted to. Towing can get out of control even faster if I don't pay attention.
Before this run, I did have the guage on the return line right out of the VP. It stayed at a fairly constant 120-130 degrees but would climb on a good pull (I was towing about 5000lbs at the time).
I'll drop the guage on the input line to the VP and see what she says. I can almost guarantee that they will be up in the 120-130's easily. As good as a heat sink a tank of fuel is, once it's warm, it will stay warm.
Jeff
06-26-2006, 09:22 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by torquefan
That's a really interesting test. I would love to monitor the fuel temp immediately before it enters the VP44, just to see how much heat it picks up on its way from the tank, and also to see how much the tank heats up on a long trip.
I don't believe long hill climbs were tested, so Jeffs temp probe at VP-44 inlet would be very interesting!
RJ
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06-26-2006, 09:42 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by rjohnson
I don't know about fuel entering the VP-44 but extensive testing was done, on another site, for fuel temps in the tank. If I remember correctly, with anything more than 1/4 tank, they found fuel temps were 15 degrees higher than OAT (Outside Air Temp).... under almost all conditions!
I don't believe long hill climbs were tested, so Jeffs temp probe at VP-44 inlet would be very interesting!
RJ
I don't believe long hill climbs were tested, so Jeffs temp probe at VP-44 inlet would be very interesting!
RJ
Research I've read indicates that maximum efficiency is with a fuel temp of around 700F at the injection pump outlets.
Yes, a seven with two zeros.
These tests were done before the invent of electronically controlled engines though.
06-26-2006, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by infidel
....Research I've read indicates that maximum efficiency is with a fuel temp of around 700F at the injection pump outlets.
If so, Jeffs 100-200* readings seem way low also?
The test I was refering to was with a infared heat gun on the outside of the tank...which could make for small differences...but nowhere near that much....Right?
RJ
06-26-2006, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Homestead
On to part 2 of the experiment......I'll let you know, I have a 16 row fan equipped cooler sitting here with a bunch of fuel hose beside it just waiting to be installed.
Jeff
06-26-2006, 06:59 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by rjohnson
Interesting....By "Inj pump outlets" do you mean return lines?
If so, Jeffs 100-200* readings seem way low also?
The test I was refering to was with a infared heat gun on the outside of the tank...which could make for small differences...but nowhere near that much....Right?
RJ
If so, Jeffs 100-200* readings seem way low also?
The test I was refering to was with a infared heat gun on the outside of the tank...which could make for small differences...but nowhere near that much....Right?
RJ
The 700F I spoke of was experimental, they artificially raised the fuel temp with an engine on a dyno.
My own measure of over 100° on a single digit day was also done with an infrared gun on the outside of the tank.
06-26-2006, 07:09 PM
#12
Originally Posted by yarddog
Where are you going to plumb it in? I installed a 4X10" cooler on the input line between the filter and VP but I'm wondering if this is the best place for it? Would it be more beneficial to cool the fuel as it goes back to the tank rather than right before it goes into the VP?
06-26-2006, 08:32 PM
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I'm beating around the various places to mount the cooler.
The return line takes full advantage of the "heat" in the fuel after it leaves the head and the VP.
The easiest way to route it obviously is the input line to the VP after it leaves the filter.
The way I'm thinking is to place the cooler on the input to the VP. Using twin or a higher pressure pump, bump the pressures up to 20-30 or higher psi but regulate them back down to 15-16 before the fuel hits the VP. By using a bypass or return type regulator, all the "excess" pressure or flow is returned to the tank at the union where the head and VP return lines join.
This gives the VP it's required "psi" without any kind of overpressure or hard start problems. It also sends cold or cooler fuel back to the tank to help control some temps back there in the tank.
I'm not sure if it's the most efficient way of cooling. All the fluid experts that I have talked to all say the same thing.....Once the tank gets warm, it will stay warm and slowly increase in temps until you refill the total volume and "reset" the tank temp with a fresh load of cool fuel. I explained my way of "backflushing" the return with cool fuel straight from the cooler and and they agree it will make a difference. What I am basically doing is creating a recirculating pump type system that is continously cooling the fuel. It works along the lines of a bypass oil filter system.
With the advantage of push-loc type hoses and fitting, plumbing this system is no big deal. Sure it's going to cost me some $$$ in materials, but big deal, it's something to experiment with.
For the last couple of days, I've had the fuel temp being read right at the VP and it has been anywhere from 100 to 125 degrees at the input. These are real time readings as the truck is being operated in various traffic and highway conditions.
I've found out that the maximum allowable fuel supply to pump temperature is not to surpass 140 degrees. Bosch says 160 degrees but I haven't found anyone that has said that that is an official number, it's just the number that has been floating around these last few years. The approximate fuel return to tank temperature is not to pass 150 degrees but as I have already proven, that's not a problem to reach and then some. Bosch doesn't have a "return" temperature that anyone that I have talked to knows about.
I'm hoping to have it plumbed up by the time our Alberta group gets together in a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then I can have a bunch of miles on it and run it by the guys to get some input.
The experiment continues.........
Jeff
The return line takes full advantage of the "heat" in the fuel after it leaves the head and the VP.
The easiest way to route it obviously is the input line to the VP after it leaves the filter.
The way I'm thinking is to place the cooler on the input to the VP. Using twin or a higher pressure pump, bump the pressures up to 20-30 or higher psi but regulate them back down to 15-16 before the fuel hits the VP. By using a bypass or return type regulator, all the "excess" pressure or flow is returned to the tank at the union where the head and VP return lines join.
This gives the VP it's required "psi" without any kind of overpressure or hard start problems. It also sends cold or cooler fuel back to the tank to help control some temps back there in the tank.
I'm not sure if it's the most efficient way of cooling. All the fluid experts that I have talked to all say the same thing.....Once the tank gets warm, it will stay warm and slowly increase in temps until you refill the total volume and "reset" the tank temp with a fresh load of cool fuel. I explained my way of "backflushing" the return with cool fuel straight from the cooler and and they agree it will make a difference. What I am basically doing is creating a recirculating pump type system that is continously cooling the fuel. It works along the lines of a bypass oil filter system.
With the advantage of push-loc type hoses and fitting, plumbing this system is no big deal. Sure it's going to cost me some $$$ in materials, but big deal, it's something to experiment with.
For the last couple of days, I've had the fuel temp being read right at the VP and it has been anywhere from 100 to 125 degrees at the input. These are real time readings as the truck is being operated in various traffic and highway conditions.
I've found out that the maximum allowable fuel supply to pump temperature is not to surpass 140 degrees. Bosch says 160 degrees but I haven't found anyone that has said that that is an official number, it's just the number that has been floating around these last few years. The approximate fuel return to tank temperature is not to pass 150 degrees but as I have already proven, that's not a problem to reach and then some. Bosch doesn't have a "return" temperature that anyone that I have talked to knows about.
I'm hoping to have it plumbed up by the time our Alberta group gets together in a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then I can have a bunch of miles on it and run it by the guys to get some input.
The experiment continues.........
Jeff
06-27-2006, 02:22 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by infidel
My own measure of over 100° on a single digit day was also done with an infrared gun on the outside of the tank.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...2&page=1&pp=40
All testing was done in mild to warm OAT temps (75* to 100*). No testing was done in single digit temps, which may be the difference??
Maybe it's as simple as that...fuel temp, in the tank is always 85* - 110*. Couldn't be that simple, could it????
RJ
06-27-2006, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Homestead
I'm beating around the various places to mount the cooler.
The return line takes full advantage of the "heat" in the fuel after it leaves the head and the VP.
The easiest way to route it obviously is the input line to the VP after it leaves the filter.
The way I'm thinking is to place the cooler on the input to the VP. Using twin or a higher pressure pump, bump the pressures up to 20-30 or higher psi but regulate them back down to 15-16 before the fuel hits the VP. By using a bypass or return type regulator, all the "excess" pressure or flow is returned to the tank at the union where the head and VP return lines join.
This gives the VP it's required "psi" without any kind of overpressure or hard start problems. It also sends cold or cooler fuel back to the tank to help control some temps back there in the tank.
I'm not sure if it's the most efficient way of cooling. All the fluid experts that I have talked to all say the same thing.....Once the tank gets warm, it will stay warm and slowly increase in temps until you refill the total volume and "reset" the tank temp with a fresh load of cool fuel. I explained my way of "backflushing" the return with cool fuel straight from the cooler and and they agree it will make a difference. What I am basically doing is creating a recirculating pump type system that is continously cooling the fuel. It works along the lines of a bypass oil filter system.
With the advantage of push-loc type hoses and fitting, plumbing this system is no big deal. Sure it's going to cost me some $$$ in materials, but big deal, it's something to experiment with.
For the last couple of days, I've had the fuel temp being read right at the VP and it has been anywhere from 100 to 125 degrees at the input. These are real time readings as the truck is being operated in various traffic and highway conditions.
I've found out that the maximum allowable fuel supply to pump temperature is not to surpass 140 degrees. Bosch says 160 degrees but I haven't found anyone that has said that that is an official number, it's just the number that has been floating around these last few years. The approximate fuel return to tank temperature is not to pass 150 degrees but as I have already proven, that's not a problem to reach and then some. Bosch doesn't have a "return" temperature that anyone that I have talked to knows about.
I'm hoping to have it plumbed up by the time our Alberta group gets together in a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then I can have a bunch of miles on it and run it by the guys to get some input.
The experiment continues.........
Jeff
The return line takes full advantage of the "heat" in the fuel after it leaves the head and the VP.
The easiest way to route it obviously is the input line to the VP after it leaves the filter.
The way I'm thinking is to place the cooler on the input to the VP. Using twin or a higher pressure pump, bump the pressures up to 20-30 or higher psi but regulate them back down to 15-16 before the fuel hits the VP. By using a bypass or return type regulator, all the "excess" pressure or flow is returned to the tank at the union where the head and VP return lines join.
This gives the VP it's required "psi" without any kind of overpressure or hard start problems. It also sends cold or cooler fuel back to the tank to help control some temps back there in the tank.
I'm not sure if it's the most efficient way of cooling. All the fluid experts that I have talked to all say the same thing.....Once the tank gets warm, it will stay warm and slowly increase in temps until you refill the total volume and "reset" the tank temp with a fresh load of cool fuel. I explained my way of "backflushing" the return with cool fuel straight from the cooler and and they agree it will make a difference. What I am basically doing is creating a recirculating pump type system that is continously cooling the fuel. It works along the lines of a bypass oil filter system.
With the advantage of push-loc type hoses and fitting, plumbing this system is no big deal. Sure it's going to cost me some $$$ in materials, but big deal, it's something to experiment with.
For the last couple of days, I've had the fuel temp being read right at the VP and it has been anywhere from 100 to 125 degrees at the input. These are real time readings as the truck is being operated in various traffic and highway conditions.
I've found out that the maximum allowable fuel supply to pump temperature is not to surpass 140 degrees. Bosch says 160 degrees but I haven't found anyone that has said that that is an official number, it's just the number that has been floating around these last few years. The approximate fuel return to tank temperature is not to pass 150 degrees but as I have already proven, that's not a problem to reach and then some. Bosch doesn't have a "return" temperature that anyone that I have talked to knows about.
I'm hoping to have it plumbed up by the time our Alberta group gets together in a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then I can have a bunch of miles on it and run it by the guys to get some input.
The experiment continues.........
Jeff