GO 4LO

So what's the verdict on the durability of the firering setups that are out there now?
Long term, will it still be more reliable than o-rings in 80+psi applications?
Also, if a head has already been o-ringed, can you go back and have it fire-ringed?
Thanks!
Chris

Jim Fulmer

Fire Rings work better an high boost levels, I have a single O-ring and I'm pushing 80 psi without issues but I recommend the Fire Ring setup. Once a head is cut for an O-ring it cannot be used on a fire-ring setup.

Jim

Don M

Fire rings are failing as well. Even at boost levels under 70 PSI. Not sure yet if it is the machine work being done improperly or the inherent troubles with head movement VS. material chosen for the construction.

I have seen o-rings hold well when the work is done properly.

Unfortunantly the fire rings are not the end all fix. Long term use is not good IMO either.

I can recall two fire ring jobs that went south this past week. That just I know of. On the other hand...I have lost an o-ringed truck too.

Both are not perfect. One is not "better" than the other. Proper machine work and tolerance pays dividends.



Don~

BigBlue

What about copper?

BigBlue

What about copper?

J.R. Adkins

I have used a copper gasket and o-rings for the last several years on my truck. And they hold great. The copper gasket does seap some. The fire rings have to be cut exact for them to live and the head must not move. You can run fire rings after o-rings but you need custom sized fire rings to do it. Here is a link to Haisley Machine's site with some info about fire rings.

http://www.haisleymachine.com/Head%2...0&%20Studs.htm

J.R.

GO 4LO

Thanks for the info. So what exactly is the difference between fire-rings and o-rings then, if fire-rings can be made to fit into o-ring dia. grooves? Is it just material? Thanks.
Chris

John DiMartino

My o rings lasted 8 months, the fire rings i replaced them with only lasted 2 months.I do have 2 cyl that were very slightly overcut.im keeping the boost under 40psi til its fixed right.

Jim Fulmer

That stinks John, my guess is you will have to slightly deck the head then true up the depths, one thing that is nice is they don't cut deep into the head so you have some room to pay with.

Jim

gunracer1

i have not seen a reliable set up for high boost yet, that is the main reason i have not put a set of twins on my truck. i wish someone had a set up that could take 60 plus and live. i don't think it has been done yet. i have seen many fire rings and o rings fail, i have never seen one that made it over 20k miles without failing.

John DiMartino

Jim,the head is a new Cummins head, it was out .003,due to bad timing(blizzard prediction) i threw it together anyway.The second time it blew(1st time with fire rings,it was right before another big storm,i overnighted the parts and as i finished retorquing there was 4" of snow on the ground,i was out plowing as soon as it was buttoned up.This is a work truck for me,so i cannot keep doing this,this truck never left me once til I twinned it,and ran hi boost. I am pulling it this week,cutting it,getting the oversized rings,and a .010 over gasket. I got 12000 miles out of my o ring setup,and the head was out a touch when it was done. I had run about 60-75 lbs of nitrous thru it also ,with a typical gain of 160hp from it.
Im regretting ever fire ringing the engine, all my cuts are in the block, due to the original o ring job, the o-rings were cut .026 deep in the block.So i went .032 in the block with fire rings.When i measured the crushed rings after the head gasket was blown i had 3 at .091. and one at .092 and 2 that are uneven and as far as .094 and .095. If I had it to do over id run the 14mm studds with a.004 protrusion o ring and .020 over gasket. I think the o- rings would live if the head didnt lift.This is just my opinion,Id be willing to take a chance with it,since nothing else is working well.i never ran nitorus with the fire rings,and im afraid to now.im afraid of going over 40PSI of boost,period. My peak boost is usually 65psi+-2psi,depending on injectors. Hopefully with a perfectly decked head,and the 14mm studds ill get some decent life out of the setup.I miss pushing 65psi of boost,and the power rush that goes with it

Don M

Copper will hold anything you throw at it. Proper deck and head surface ( not the sloppy jobs done on most Storm-Vulcan broach cutters or generally anything without a CBN cutter or a wet stone) Proper o-ring depth, size and protrusion will never fail on the combustion side. Provided the studs are the right material and you get the proper yield in them. Top fuelers and Alcohol funnies run copper without failure unless other factors take the gaskets out. Generally a dead hole causing mild to severe hydrolock or a hot cylinder from lean out.

Leakies are a constant trouble with copper. Oil and water passages are tough to seal. Several options are available to help.

Nathan ran a copper all last season. Never a single combustion failure. Slight fluid leaks but nothing to write home about. Even with studs that were IMO, cheesy chinese junk.

Leakies leave the average daily driver or work truck guy in the cold with copper for the most part. Although Nathan drove his truck all over the country last year.

Stock gaskets with a proper o-ring and constant re-torque on the bolts willl hold very well. Studs add more security if they are the right ones and not taken out of spec with too many re-torques.


Don~

GO 4LO

Would 100 extra hp worth of nitrous stress the gasket and o-rings the same amount as an extra 100 hp provided by extra boost? Just started thinking about that and wasn't sure...
Chris

BigBlue

I'd think so because nitours is an instant hit where as if it was boost provided, it would be a little more gradual due to the fact that it would come up as boost came up, not all at once. Not to mention that nitrous creates a pretty violent explosion.

John DiMartino

I ran an NX progressive controller, it ramped up the nitrous very gently.there was no "hit", i intentionally did that to keep the heas gasket,and turbo alive longer.i set mine at 30% initial shot,and a 3 second ramp up time most of the time. I agree a hit of 150+hp all at once is hard on many parts,espcially head gaskrts,and turbos