EDM's vs 370's in a 12v
08-11-2004, 06:05 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tipp City, OH
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EDM's vs 370's in a 12v
Has anyone used both an EDM injector (what Mach #?) and 370's with a given setup? Did the EDM's make any more power and/or smoke, reduce EGT's, etc? I'm thinking about a injector and turbo upgrade, maybe a HTB2, and want properly matched injectors. I'm after good power without being a smoke pig.
Oh yeah, I don't tow very often.
Oh yeah, I don't tow very often.
08-11-2004, 09:11 PM
#3
DTR Advertiser
Recently, for lack of demand I have dropped the lower HP, EDM, 12 valve injectors. I do make a large competition injector though. It is not for everyone and certainly not for street use.
I still have a few sets of 12 valve nozzles I can make into anything. From a weak 5HP to the most power anyone could drive on the street and beyond.
In the past we had levels of power that were in the range of 40-50 HP all the way to crazy.
Don~
I still have a few sets of 12 valve nozzles I can make into anything. From a weak 5HP to the most power anyone could drive on the street and beyond.
In the past we had levels of power that were in the range of 40-50 HP all the way to crazy.
Don~
08-11-2004, 09:44 PM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tipp City, OH
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don,
With a stock 160 pump, how much fuel/power can be made without pump work? If I add 191 or laser cut delivery valves, will the 160 pump begin to behave like a 215 pump?
Approximately, what does a custom set of injectors cost. You can PM or email me if you do not want to give me an estimate here.
Thanks,
Aaron
With a stock 160 pump, how much fuel/power can be made without pump work? If I add 191 or laser cut delivery valves, will the 160 pump begin to behave like a 215 pump?
Approximately, what does a custom set of injectors cost. You can PM or email me if you do not want to give me an estimate here.
Thanks,
Aaron
08-12-2004, 11:47 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The 951-Flatbill center of the universe
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1dslram had Mach 4 (IIRC) EDM's in his 12v. The EDM's smoked more than the 370's. They push A LOT of fuel.
I was in the same boat a few months back, looking for injectors that provided the same increase or better than the 370's and smoked less. Don was actually the one who talked me into the 370's. Best bang for the buck.
The difference between the EDM's and 370's at my power level (~400-425HP) is negligible and doesn't justify the price difference. That's why Don isn't doing the 12v EDM's anymore (or so I was told).
Perhaps Bruce or Don will jump in here and plumb me up if I'm
My 370's do smoke, but I can control it with my right foot. I have also adjusted some of it out with the star wheel, it cut the opacity and duration down quite a bit.
I was in the same boat a few months back, looking for injectors that provided the same increase or better than the 370's and smoked less. Don was actually the one who talked me into the 370's. Best bang for the buck.
The difference between the EDM's and 370's at my power level (~400-425HP) is negligible and doesn't justify the price difference. That's why Don isn't doing the 12v EDM's anymore (or so I was told).
Perhaps Bruce or Don will jump in here and plumb me up if I'm
My 370's do smoke, but I can control it with my right foot. I have also adjusted some of it out with the star wheel, it cut the opacity and duration down quite a bit.
Trending Topics
08-12-2004, 12:51 PM
#8
DTR Advertiser
Bruce is running a set of super large EDM 12 valve injectors. They are not meant for the street. I tried to convey this message to everyone who wanted a large "competition only" injector.
He won them in the HVAC benefit auction on the TDR. He told me he had a stoopid pump and twin turbos. He wanted to kick some tail at local dyno events. He got what he asked for, but they are not street injectors.
He is sitting on a gold mine of HP, but has yet get the tune up right. With some work he should get there once everything is right.
The 370's are a cheap injector and I cant even get good parts for the 300 dollar price tag the 370's have. The 370 spray pattern is not what the engine needs, but price always plays a roll in hot-rodding. Its off by 10 degrees and this will get worse with increased injection timing.
I have plenty of second generation 12 valve cores and a few sets of nozzles left. Nozzles I can use to make into a set of any HP injector. Anything from less than stock power levels all the way to more than anything you can find. These are custom one-off injectors and built by hand. They are not 300 bucks.
In the future if there is demand I may get more 12 valve specific nozzles and begin building them. Unfortunantly, I dont have enough telephone time to help guys get the P pumps tuned up and help with technical support on pump adjustments.
Jim Fulmer was or is using some 370's, but they are extrude honed.
Aaron,
I have an injector that works great without larger DV's. The 370's are so large they exceed the smaller pumps ability to hold enough injection pressure. The 160 pumps worse trouble is the plungers design and the camshaft it uses. A 160 pump will never work as well as the 215 if the internals are not changed. Camshaft, plungers and barrels, etc.
He won them in the HVAC benefit auction on the TDR. He told me he had a stoopid pump and twin turbos. He wanted to kick some tail at local dyno events. He got what he asked for, but they are not street injectors.
He is sitting on a gold mine of HP, but has yet get the tune up right. With some work he should get there once everything is right.
The 370's are a cheap injector and I cant even get good parts for the 300 dollar price tag the 370's have. The 370 spray pattern is not what the engine needs, but price always plays a roll in hot-rodding. Its off by 10 degrees and this will get worse with increased injection timing.
I have plenty of second generation 12 valve cores and a few sets of nozzles left. Nozzles I can use to make into a set of any HP injector. Anything from less than stock power levels all the way to more than anything you can find. These are custom one-off injectors and built by hand. They are not 300 bucks.
In the future if there is demand I may get more 12 valve specific nozzles and begin building them. Unfortunantly, I dont have enough telephone time to help guys get the P pumps tuned up and help with technical support on pump adjustments.
Jim Fulmer was or is using some 370's, but they are extrude honed.
Aaron,
I have an injector that works great without larger DV's. The 370's are so large they exceed the smaller pumps ability to hold enough injection pressure. The 160 pumps worse trouble is the plungers design and the camshaft it uses. A 160 pump will never work as well as the 215 if the internals are not changed. Camshaft, plungers and barrels, etc.
08-12-2004, 12:57 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The 951-Flatbill center of the universe
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Don, I knew you'd set me straight
The other folks I talked to about EDM's told me the same thing about "tuning" them.
My ability to tune the 370's is stretched at this point....
The other folks I talked to about EDM's told me the same thing about "tuning" them.
My ability to tune the 370's is stretched at this point....
08-12-2004, 05:37 PM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tipp City, OH
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can a 191 or laser cut delivery valve change allow the 160 to move enough fuel? Or should I begin to save for a 215 pump? My ultimate (as of today) hp goal is sub-500. I know how that bombing bug effects your thinking!!
08-12-2004, 10:29 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Newcastle Ok.
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim Fulmer was or is using some 370's, but they are extrude honed.
I'm still running them.....don't even ask me the pattern on them....I don't know!
Don, is right on the 370's! Why do we like them......there cheap and flow allot, now this doesn't mean there correct or optimal. I personally like the idea of changing the pattern to the timing and piston design.
Pumps, now there is a different story. P-pumps are a different anamal, basically you need to learn there language and learn what makes them tick and how to adjust that tick!
Jim
I'm still running them.....don't even ask me the pattern on them....I don't know!
Don, is right on the 370's! Why do we like them......there cheap and flow allot, now this doesn't mean there correct or optimal. I personally like the idea of changing the pattern to the timing and piston design.
Pumps, now there is a different story. P-pumps are a different anamal, basically you need to learn there language and learn what makes them tick and how to adjust that tick!
Jim
08-13-2004, 12:40 AM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bethpage, Tn
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Don M
The 370's are a cheap injector and I cant even get good parts for the 300 dollar price tag the 370's have. The 370 spray pattern is not what the engine needs, but price always plays a roll in hot-rodding. Its off by 10 degrees and this will get worse with increased injection timing.
The 370's are a cheap injector and I cant even get good parts for the 300 dollar price tag the 370's have. The 370 spray pattern is not what the engine needs, but price always plays a roll in hot-rodding. Its off by 10 degrees and this will get worse with increased injection timing.
However you now have me curious as to the spray pattern of my PDR 370 injectors
Are they also off by "10 degrees" or do the PDR injectors have a different spray pattern?
08-13-2004, 08:24 AM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Newcastle Ok.
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mark, don't quote me on patterns but that one of the reasons Piers want's you to use the .020 washers is because of the pattern. The main thing with his 370's is you have the ones he likes and tested......(there are many versions) and they are a match set as they are all pop tested to get that (not just shipped to you) They are not the end all of injectors (any 370) but there hard to beat.
Last spring 03' I pulled my head and saw no issues with running them, when I pull this motor I will check everything for what really has happened in the last 3 years to it as I don't think there is a motor around that has been abused more than mine!
Jim
Last spring 03' I pulled my head and saw no issues with running them, when I pull this motor I will check everything for what really has happened in the last 3 years to it as I don't think there is a motor around that has been abused more than mine!
Jim
08-13-2004, 10:11 AM
#15
DTR Advertiser
There are two part numbers for the 370. Both have the same exact spray pattern. 155 degrees. One spray jet never hits the area it should. No matter what washer is used. Its the spray jet that is angled to the hit wall of the toroidal bowl in the marine piston furthest away from the injector. Two of the 5 jets can hit the cylinder wall. Depending on head gasket thickness, copper washer thickness and the counterbore depth of the cylinder head casting you are using. Cummins drilled the 215 cylinder head counterbore slightly deeper.
The good news is: that if the cylinder temps are high enough from running the engine with enough boost or cruising with enough boost...you will have sufficient temperature to ignite the spray jet long before it reaches the cylinder walls.
This all depends on how much fuel you are injecting. Low engine speeds and low boost can get the spray jets out of the bowl. Of course, higher injection timing makes it worse at low speeds as well.
The non-intercooled first gens can use a 370 nozzle without troubles. Anything after that is subject to the spray jets impacting the wrong locations.
Don~
The good news is: that if the cylinder temps are high enough from running the engine with enough boost or cruising with enough boost...you will have sufficient temperature to ignite the spray jet long before it reaches the cylinder walls.
This all depends on how much fuel you are injecting. Low engine speeds and low boost can get the spray jets out of the bowl. Of course, higher injection timing makes it worse at low speeds as well.The non-intercooled first gens can use a 370 nozzle without troubles. Anything after that is subject to the spray jets impacting the wrong locations.
Don~