kevinn

OK, I was reading some threads on another forum and one person was towing fairly heavy with his '01 HO 6 speed, DDIII's, and an Edge Comp acting as EZ mode and he ended up toasting his #6 piston. The discussion basically blamed the meltdown on the EZ advancing the timing too much and creating too much pressure in the cylinders and running with the EGT's too high (between 1200 and 1300).

This has me a little concerned. I don't tow that heavy. At least I don't think I do. (Its a 24 foot tt, with a 4-wheeler in the bed and a fair amount of water.)

Is the EZ going to cause problems for the HO's? Is it fine for the SO's? The last thing that I want to do is toast a piston. I don't have the big injectors yet, but plan to eventually.

Thanks for any input.

erics76

What kind of EGT's are you seeing when you tow? Most likely the DDIII's are causing the high EGT's for that guy. I've pulled a 28 foot cattle trailer loaded a few times, and haven't broke 1200 yet. That's with an SO with EZ and intake and exhaust work. If run constantly at 1200-1300, you'll probably burn something up. Sounds like that fellow is barking up the wrong tree in blameing the Comp/EZ. If he would have watched his temps, and backed out of it when he was running at 1300, he probably wouldn't have burned up a piston.

AlpineRAM

Where is your pyro probe? Pre or post?
If you tow with a CTD (even stock) it's very advisable to have a pre-turbo pyro and watch it. Don't let it get above 1200 and you can run all day long.
Even on a stock truck some variables can make it run hotter than it should. (Dirty air filter, damaged exhaust, valve clearance, bad injector, etc)
I'd also suggest that you should get some more air in (I use the scotty2) and the exhaust gas out (DPP 4" here)

Just my 2c

AlpineRAM

kevinn

I have my pyro post turbo. You're right, I probably should move that to pre-turbo. I haven't towed yet with my EZ so I'm not sure what temperatures I will see. I'm located in Utah so there are quite a few passes that are pretty high in elevation. Without the EZ, I have seen up around 1000 degrees so add another 200 to compensate for the post turbo reading and I'm already up to the limit.

So does the EZ cause the pressures to rise that much in the cylinder than without the EZ? Also, do the HO's already have higher pressures than the SO. I'm not sure what the differences are.

I also plan on getting the Scotty, just have to go in stages.....

billg

First question is what turbo did he have? Those injectors are a little hot for the HX35 especially if you are towing. In fact the DDIII are not recommended for towing. http://www.piersdiesel.com/DodgeInjectors.htm
I have the Edge EZ stacked with the Superchips Tuner and I tow a 27’ 5th wheel (8080 lbs) with no problems. I just made a trip to Florida where I got my new tranny and EZ and on the way back (to Va.) the highest temps I saw most of the way were 900+ and I was really on the go pedal. I never saw anything above 1050 degf even when cresting a hill. The EZ was designed for towing applications and I doubt that was his problem. I bet his problem was not enough air to keep things cool.
By the way I think it’s 300 degf you add if you are post turbo. It is a good idea to move your probe to pre turbo. I don’t think you can use the boost elbow so I would look into a Turbo master to get the boost up to keep things cool. I have heard of people drilling the elbow with a wire drill on the HY35.
Just my $0.02 worth.

J BODY

Did they post the exhaust temps they were seeing? Or were they flying blind with no gauges. I run an EZ on my 01 truck. My trailer probably weighs in around 8k or better. I have to drive up 3200 ft or better no matter which way I leave town. With the EZ I can push my post turbo readings up to 800 pretty easy. Since I put a turnbuckle on the wastegate it's brought the egt down pretty good. I can now go to 29.5 boost which from my studies shouldn't pose a problem (fingers crossed ). The last three Cummins engines that we installed long blocks in were all towing heavy, all running a mod of some kind (fuel box), and NONE were running gauges. Of course they all had oil filters on that were not DC approved either for whatever that's worth. My truck stock used to pretty much max out at 42 mph going up the pass I mentioned. With the EZ and the turbo mod I can maintain 55. Now I need to find a torque converter .

kevinn

The guy mentioned that he was seeing between 1200 and 1300 on the pyro. I agree, I think the problem can be attributed more to the big injectors and the small turbo. I've got to move that pyro to pre turbo, I'm just a chicken to drill the exhaust manifold. I have also put in the turnbuckle and am seeing close to 30 psi. I'll pay close attention the first time I pull. Thanks for the reassurance.

billg

The pyro only looks scary. Drill a pilot hole it will make the bigger hole a lot easier to handle. When I drilled my hole I used high temp bearing grease on the tip of the drill. Drill a little clean off the tip and put on more grease. Same with the tap. When you are done use a magnet to pick up any pieces that fall into the manifold. Use one of those pocket magnets that looks like it’s on a radio antenna. Fish around until the magnet comes up clean. Keep pushing the magnet as far as you can in every direction. Or you can take off the turbo and then drill it. Do it the way you feel comfortable with. Do a search on gauges there is a lot of info on this subject.
Here is a link with more info.
http://www.tstproducts.com/gauge_install.html
Good Luck

tmoore

If you remove the turbo will it seal back up correctly? I am getting ready to add some guages and drilling the manifold seems scarry to me as well. I would hate to remove it and have horrible exhaust leak. Will any metal shavings be able to get in the oil through the oil?

RustyJC

I tow a 13,500 lb 5th wheel that hits the road at 10,380 lbs GVW (10,500 lbs GVWR) and 21,180 GCW (21,500 lbs GCWR). The pre-turbo EGT's have run as follows:

Stock - 1300 degF @ 21-22 PSIG boost

EZ, BHAF, 4" exhaust, stock injectors - 1100 degF @ 30 PSIG boost

EZ, BHAF, 4" exhaust, DD2's - 1225 degF @ 33-34 PSIG so far. The injectors went in this winter - summer towing will tell the tale!

Interestingly, the last configuration drops the EGT back to 1100 degF @ 30 PSIG boost even with the DD2's merely by unplugging the data link cable from the EZ to the CANbus, leaving the MAP cables in place so that the EZ acts as a boost fooler.

I believe the fellow who toasted #6 also said that he had been having some pyrometer problems - he thought it might be reading 200 degF low.

Rusty

roadranger

I've been researching this because I've got the same problem, and here's what I found out;

YES the EZ causes higher cyl. pressures in the HO, because of the timing advance.

YES the HO has a higher compression ratio than the SO. (higher cyl. press.)

Diesel Dynamics has their own version of the EZ out that reduces the overall timing increase--good for the HO engine.

The HO engine responds better to bigger injectors, than a timing box.

BUT, my HO just doesn't have any *snap* to it when I have to take the EZ out of it!

RustyJC

Yep, when I unplug the EZ's data link cable (leaving the MAP cables plugged in), even with the DD2's, the power band feels just like a stock truck, even though it's pushed higher across the range.

Rusty

HOHN

Kevin, et al:


Don't worry about melting something. Just use your head.

While I generally favor injectors over boxes, towing heavy is a somewhat unique situation. As I posted on the TDR thread, it's the COMBINATION of things that matters.

Take someone like RustyJC. He tows right at high GCWR limit. He tows with DD2s and an EZ. Is he likely to hurt something? Well, anything's possible, but I would consider his setup to be about as safe as one could ask for. With the 6-speed AND the 4.10 rear end, he has a lot of control over how much load the engine sees.

You have to balance some key ingredients in YOUR recipe, which is determined by how you use your truck.

These ingredients include overall fueling level, how it is achieved (i.e. box vs. injectors and how much fuel from each),overall airflow (turbo upgrade?), TIMING, and also you have to tailor it to the stock engine componentry. The HO has a more explosive fuel delivery in it's VP compared to the SO, in addition to higher static compression.

The result? The HO needs less timing overall, and can make the same power or greater with smaller injectors.

In fact, the STOCK injectors in the HO trucks actually flow LESS than the stock injectors in the standard output trucks. Yet they make more power because they can force MORE fuel into the engine even through a smaller hole.

This is the reason that wire-tap boxes do NOT give as much HP on the ETH as they do on the ETC trucks. On the ETH, the stock fueling uses more of the available fuel in the plungers, thus the fueling boxes which extend duty cycle have LESS reserve fuel to work with on the ETHs-- thus, less power. Figure 120hp on an ETC from a wire-tap box, while an ETH will only gain about 90 hp from such a box.

Now what happens if you put the same 120hp box and 75 hp injectors on both an ETC and an ETH? (similar to edge comp and DD2s)

The ETH has a quicker fuel discharge than the ETC does. It also has a higher static compression ratio (17:1 vs 16.3:1). End result? Higher peak cylinder pressures. The ETH injects a higher percentage of its fuel EARLIER in the cycle than an ETC does. This is why it responds so well to injectors. For a given injector size, the ETH injects more fuel.

Now when you tap the wire, things tend to equalize a little. At a higher duty cycle level (comp on 5x5), overall fueling will be very similar between the ETC and the ETH.

But it's the QUALITY of the fuel delivery that makes the difference. The ETH will STILL inject more of its fuel earlier in the cycle than the ETC will. When the fuel box commands more fuel to be injected after this initial event, the ETH will have less reserve fuel than the ETC, thus there's less to inject.

So the theory I espouse is that the ETH will generally give you higher peak cylinder pressures than an ETC. Furthermore, with identical fueling, it should have slightly lower EGT because of what's described above. The ETH will also have higher peak combustion temps and therefore higher emissions (at least for NOx and such).

Keep all this in mind when you are mapping out what BOMBs to give your truck. The guy who tows a lot and/or tows heavy should take a different approach than the hot-rodder who's mostly empty. The ETC owner also might want to consider a different approach than an ETH owner. Same for auto trans vs. stick shift.

It's all about the package. So have fun and BOMB away, just be smart about it

Justin

RustyJC

To amplify a bit on what Justin said - with the EZ and stock injectors, my truck would pull fairly hard up to about 2700 RPM and then really drop off. When I went to the DD2's with no other changes, I certainly noticed stronger bottom end and midrange torque, but what surprised me is that the truck now pulled like Jack the bear (relatively speaking) all the way to 3200 RPM! Obviously, the stock injectors were acting like an orifice - they just couldn't flow enough over 2700 to make the power that the DD2's make.

Rusty

gwhammy

With an ez, dd2's straight pipe bhaf 35-40 hybrid, my HO would run up into the 1200's barely grossing 33,000. Real comtrollable with the hybrid turbo. I'm running 2.5 edm's now it will go up into the 1400's real quick. EZ and two's with my combo is a pulling machine, at 24000 gross on four lane 80 to 85 mph cruise speed is not much of a problem. At high gross I don't push the truck very hard though.