southernsmoker

I read on PDR website that the module offers 50-150+HP. Will this box out perform (as far as fuel delivery and timing)the TST Comp version which requires the waiver? And the waiver is because the box doesn't allow the pump to defuel any....correct?? I need a box that will compliment injectors such as Supermentals.

banshee

SS,

TST makes you sign the waiver because the competition version of the PM3 is not emissions certified. I'm 99.9% sure that the regular PM3 has a CARB E.O.#, but the comp box is for "For Offroad Use Only" :. I run the TST PM3 Comp with supermentals, and it makes for a very good combination. IMO the TST boxes fuel more than the UFM and Drag Comp, but it's debatable. Also, stacking an EZ, VA, or TTPM with the TST box adds even more power (in most cases).

John

HOHN

Banshee is onto something. Yes, the PMAX is CARB certified, but the Comp (and the DDUFM) are not.

The PMAX and the DDUFM are the only two wire-tap boxes I would consider.

BTW-- you are probably better off with the regular PMAX if you have an HO truck. The weeny pump on the HOs won't respond to what the PMAX COmp is asking of it. The PMAX comp is probably the wickedest fueling box available.. SERIOUS fuel.

Also, the PMAX comp has almost no difference from levels 7-9. Only difference is that the fuel comes in sooner and it brings the whole wagon with it.

90% of the folks would be just fine with the standard PMAX. It is more street-friendly, since you can fine-tune the levels better than the comp version.

If you go with the PMAX comp, take it easy. This thing can cylce the solenoid at ove 72%, which will certainly tax the VP. If your VP is even a little weak, it COULD be sayonara, VP.

FWIW, I think the PMAX is the ONLY Carb certified fueling box. THe comp version requires the waiver for this reason. Contrary to myth, it's not a vp44 frying waiver where you won't sue them if you torch your inj pump


Justin

Push Rod

[quote author=HOHN link=board=7;threadid=21674;start=0#msg204123 date=1067633282]
BTW-- you are probably better off with the regular PMAX if you have an HO truck. The weeny pump on the HOs won't respond to what the PMAX COmp is asking of it. The PMAX comp is probably the wickedest fueling box available.. SERIOUS fuel.
[/quote]

One nice thing about the Competition version of the PowerMax is that it is more aggressive than the standard PM3 on the bottom side power (fuel comes on earlier), even on an HO truck. So what we've been doing (any TST dealer can do this I believe) is getting the Comp's bottom side aggression put into the standard PM3s (it costs an extra 50 bucks, same as the Competition program), without the big fueling load up top. Gives a little more throttle response at the cost of a little more smoke, if the turbo can't handle it.

Rod

Battering Ram

Leave it up to you to think of everything.

Horace

HOHN

One thing to consider:

The Defuel program (absent from the TST box) on the DDUFM allows you to run truly HUGE injectors on the street.

I would say Supermentals or Mach 4s would be perfectly streetable with the defuel capability of the DDUFM.

The DDUFM is the ONLY box that offers this defueling, as far as I know.

The TST PMAX competition has no equal as far as raw power goes. It fuels heavier than anything else.

But the DDUFM has a lot going for it. It has the low-rpm defuel which reduces smoke with monster injectors. It has timing (though not excessive like the Edge boxes). It also can make a LOT of hp, even though it won't match the TST.

The Drag version of the DDUFM might come close to the TST comp box, but it almost certainly won't surpass it.

HOHN

banshee

Hohn,

You can work with Mark (Greg actually does the programming) at TST and he can make any program you want. If you want low RPM defueling, or if you want a level to fuel under stock all the way across the map then they can do it if you ask for it. When I had mine done I had Greg fuel me harder than normal on level 9.

John

PourinDiesel

Hohn,
The fuel rate of the Edge/DD boxes might not be match the TST boxes, but on the Dyno the numbers do not lie.

The Edge/DD boxes run right with TST Comp's stacked with Ez's and VA's.

For instance, I run 125hp injector just like Banshee, the same turbo.
Difference is he runs a PM3 Comp with DD TTPM stacked.
We run within 4-5hp of each other on Mustang dynos.
Also, on dynojet if I remember right John did 455 (right?).
I did 462/951tq.

So its sort of half a dozen of 1, 6 of the other type thing.

By the way the Edge boxes also have the Defuel capabilities.

--Justin

banshee

Justin,

You're right on. I made 455-463 on David's Dynojet at Claremont. The last time I was on a mustang (last summer) I made 497, so I'm sure I would have seen the 500+ at Schied's this year. I'm still not convinced that my recent numbers are accurate since they don't match up very well to what I'm seeing at the track.

Justin and I have run on the interstates, and they're pretty close there, too .

John

HOHN

I was told that you won't see the big numbers out of a PMAX on an inertial dyno like the Dynojets. Because the box responds to boost, you need the high loading of a Mustang to get it to show dyno hp.

I am still debating whether or not to go with the DDUFM or the PMAX. I am leaning towards the DDUFM because it plugs into the Can Bus. I personally think that the PMAX tries to get too much off of just the pump wire. The pump wire is its only source of info like rpm and such.

I personally think that the Can Bus is the place to read this info, and the only reason to tap the wire is to give commands to the solenoid in the VP44.

I just can't see myself with the Edge brand box. When paired with my dd2s, the timing hammer of my EZ feels like its hurting the engine. How much worse will it be with Mach4s?

Hohn

PourinDiesel

The timing doesnt hurt anything.
And besides if your worried about hurting your engines life you wouldnt be modding it with fueling boxes and high horsepower injectors.

;D

Dont believe the propaganda.
Learn for yourself.

--Justin

DarrellB

[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=7;threadid=21674;start=0#msg205768 date=1067999290]
The timing doesnt hurt anything.
And besides if your worried about hurting your engines life you wouldnt be modding it with fueling boxes and high horsepower injectors.

;D

Dont believe the propaganda.
Learn for yourself.

--Justin
[/quote]

[move]Mr. Edge has spoken. [/move]




DB

Push Rod

[quote author=PourinDiesel link=board=7;threadid=21674;start=0#msg205486 date=1067967753]
The Edge/DD boxes run right with TST Comp's stacked with Ez's and VA's.
[/quote]

This depends on dyno, operator, and conditions. The TST boxes work off of delta boost, until you get to a certain boost level where it will simply go full fuel. So the faster your boost rises, the faster it will pour the fuel to the truck. So if you're on a loading dyno where the operator adds load gradually, the TST box will never really shine (HP is simply a measurement work over a period of time. If you're not letting the box run to its peak, you'll never achieve a nice curve).

We did some playing on a SuperFlo with TST and Edge boxes. Pouring the load to the truck early and hard significantly changed the curves and peaks of the TST box as it was able to pull fuel on early and hold it. Was our test representative of street conditions? Probably not, as street driving is typically a little more gentle. But it was good representation of heavy towing, or a 1/4 mile run where you're launching at 15 or 20 PSI of boost. And the TST did outperform the Drag Comp we were testing again.

Quite frankly, I hate dynos and their associated numbers. I really prefer timing tests, but its very difficult to do these under anything that resembles controlled conditions.

Rod

PourinDiesel

Rod,
Post the numbers.

--Justin

Push Rod

Justin,

Truck: 2002 Dodge RAM 2500 4x4, bone stock (except gauges)

Three styles of runs were done. For those who don't know how a Superflo dyno works, I'll give a brief explanation: The truck is generally accelerated to 75 mph under a no load situation. At 75 mph under this no-load situation boost is usually minimal, depending on the turbo in use. In our test case, we were seeing about 3 PSI. Once the 75 mph speed is hit, load is applied to drum in an attempt to literally kill the truck. We did three styles of run: hard, medium, soft. With the hard runs, load was brought on very quickly and to the point where the truck was even stalled a couple times. The soft run was a very gradual increase in load, and load was let off by 1100 RPM.

Base Runs (averaged over 3 runs at each loadout):
Hard load: 205/390
Medium: 200/390
Soft: 195/370

Notice the hard load to medium didn't change much? The stock ECM is not all that dependent on delta boost for its fueling, but instead uses TPS to control how much additional fuel to add. Notice the torque didn't change at all? SuperFlo read torque at a given RPM and calculate HP. So as long as you are at full fuel, torque won't move much. The soft load torque value is down as we didn't allow the dyno to do a full load.

Drag Comp:
Hard load: 315/690
Medium: 313/690
Soft: 300/660

Pretty much the same results from the Drag box, except the torque peak was lower, at 2400 RPM

PM3 Competition version
Hard load: 335/730
Medium: 315/700
Soft: 290/650

Notice how skewed the numbers are with the TST box? On the medium and soft loads, the TST wasn't fueling properly, and even though it did still hit full fuel at 20 PSI of boost, by this time RPMs had dropped from load and the dyno calculated torque much lower than it probably was. Notice the medium load numbers? Virtually identical to the Edge box. We felt the medium load stuff was a pretty fair simulation of street driving. The soft load stuff wasn't accurate simulation of anything, but an attempt to display how improper operation of a dyno can skew numbers.

One thing to note on the hard load numbers: The PM3 Comp box at 1700 RPM dished out an additional 100 ftlbs of torque over and above what the Drag Comp did. I feel certain this why we get such great 1/4 mile times out of the PM3's when we hook them to rapid spooling turbos. If the boost flies up quickly, the PM3 pours the fuel to the engine much more quickly.

I assume this is what you are looking for Justin?

Rod