Changing angle on valves
10-14-2003, 03:29 PM
#16
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Are the Fearra valves made of Inconel steel? If not do you, or anyone else, know if there is an Inconel steel valve made for a Cummins? Manley has a set that are made out of Inconel; originally made for the 6000HP+ top fuel motors. They are forged one-piece construction with a uniform Rockwell-50 hardness that resists valve-head erosion. Manley can make them for any engine with a 11/32 valve stems (did I answer my own question). Sorry for so many questions. 
4x4
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10-14-2003, 04:37 PM
#17
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Re:Changing angle on valves
What I refer to as a multy angle valve job does not change or effect the the orignal valve angle or size of the sealing angle. I should say it don't have to. Some will change the sealing angle or size for performance. But this would not be done on a street run engine.
The extra cuts are made to improve flow around the valve.
The aftermarket valves mentioned are very high quality valves. They will certainly last as long or longer then stock.
The big difference between a diesel and a high perf gas engine is rpm range, valve spring pressures, and the cam profiles. Since a diesel is run at a much lower rpm the springs can be softer, and the cam profile can be ground to be easier on the valves.
While the guy is there, he might look at some bowl work and blending. There is probally more to be gained there then the multy angle valve.
The extra cuts are made to improve flow around the valve.
The aftermarket valves mentioned are very high quality valves. They will certainly last as long or longer then stock.
The big difference between a diesel and a high perf gas engine is rpm range, valve spring pressures, and the cam profiles. Since a diesel is run at a much lower rpm the springs can be softer, and the cam profile can be ground to be easier on the valves.
While the guy is there, he might look at some bowl work and blending. There is probally more to be gained there then the multy angle valve.
10-14-2003, 07:41 PM
#19
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Scott,
I would certainly consider backcutting the intake valves. It will help flow at low lift. I found up to about .350 it would give some gains in airflow. 12 CFM total was the best gain. This is considerable IMO.
The exhaust side needs to be durable as hell to deal with the EGT's. I am conservative on this end.
Cummins has a real nice Stellite valve for higher output engines. They also have a high temp seat as well.
Both last a long time under stresses of their Marine and other engines. High performance Dodge/Cummins stuff can benifit as well.
The 60lb springs are nice as well. The retainers are farm tractor heavy= Yuk! I run the stockers but I am considering making something better for future use.
Of course if you do end up with a high performance valve, the backcutting will not be needed in most cases.
Believe it or not the stock marine stuff is just about as good as you will ever need. Although heavy, but Man your largest restrictions are not your valves anyway....its the pathetic stock camshaft grind that is killing your airflow.
Don~
I would certainly consider backcutting the intake valves. It will help flow at low lift. I found up to about .350 it would give some gains in airflow. 12 CFM total was the best gain. This is considerable IMO.
The exhaust side needs to be durable as hell to deal with the EGT's. I am conservative on this end.
Cummins has a real nice Stellite valve for higher output engines. They also have a high temp seat as well.
Both last a long time under stresses of their Marine and other engines. High performance Dodge/Cummins stuff can benifit as well.
The 60lb springs are nice as well. The retainers are farm tractor heavy= Yuk! I run the stockers but I am considering making something better for future use.
Of course if you do end up with a high performance valve, the backcutting will not be needed in most cases.
Believe it or not the stock marine stuff is just about as good as you will ever need. Although heavy, but Man your largest restrictions are not your valves anyway....its the pathetic stock camshaft grind that is killing your airflow.
Don~
10-14-2003, 11:05 PM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Thanks for all the input guys,
I ordered my valves earlier today and they should be here Friday ;D. That means my truck should have its all new (minus a new cam) motor ;D 8) in this weekend 8). I would have went with a new cam but Rod said his new cams had not come in yet >
.
The final choice was Manely intakes that will be back cut at 20*, Thanks Don for the .350 tip
. The head will be cut to match as well. For the exhaust side I went with Ferrea special alloys which will also be back cut (to 30*), with the head matching as well. Im pretty confident that the valves I went with will outlast most of the rest of my motor 8) , but I guess there has to be a weak point somewhere .
Nothing besides putting the new squirters in that the kit came with. Why do you ask?
Thanks again,
Scott
I ordered my valves earlier today and they should be here Friday ;D. That means my truck should have its all new (minus a new cam) motor ;D 8) in this weekend 8). I would have went with a new cam but Rod said his new cams had not come in yet >
. The final choice was Manely intakes that will be back cut at 20*, Thanks Don for the .350 tip
. The head will be cut to match as well. For the exhaust side I went with Ferrea special alloys which will also be back cut (to 30*), with the head matching as well. Im pretty confident that the valves I went with will outlast most of the rest of my motor 8) , but I guess there has to be a weak point somewhere .
what or did you do anything diff to your piston cooloing jets??
Thanks again,
Scott
10-15-2003, 12:50 AM
#21
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Good information here but I have to agree with some of the other guys. I would really do some research on this before messing with with metal type and grind of your valves. There is a huge difference on grinds when you are talking forced induction. Many flow characters dont apply but heat dissipation plays a huge role. Maybe you know all this; I cant say, but if it were me I would talk to some guys that practice this stuff on the Cummins all the time. Like Piers or Rod at Wildcat. Learn from their mistakes.
10-15-2003, 03:40 AM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
KATOOM hit the nail on the head. There are a ton of factors to consider here and it sounds like you are on top of it. Just be careful and listen to the guys that do cummins diesel daily.
JMO
John
JMO
John
10-15-2003, 08:22 AM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
12vers can get valves made alot easier than use 24vers. Manley can not make vaves for the 24v,been there and done that.Ferrea can and made all of my valves for me. They are a custom size so they were EXPENSIVE! My intakes were made of a material that was well beyond the stock valve strength and heat capability. My exhaust were made of there most extreme heat material, it is alot higher heat capability than Inconel.I also had them made bigger. The next thing is stronger valve springs so as not to tap dance the valves to the pistons, which has been happing to some of the twin turboed guys.
John
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10-15-2003, 02:21 PM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Thanks for the concern guys. I can assure you that I have done my research on this and I would definately NOT put anything in my truck that is not top (most of the time over the top ) quality.
Floor it: How long have you been runnin the Ferreas? Have you been happy with them? The Ferreas I went with are Special Alloy valves and are MUCH stronger than the stockers. I guess this is the same kind you went with.
Scott
) quality.Floor it: How long have you been runnin the Ferreas? Have you been happy with them? The Ferreas I went with are Special Alloy valves and are MUCH stronger than the stockers. I guess this is the same kind you went with.
Scott
10-15-2003, 06:19 PM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
I'll have too look up the specs on the 24v valve size.
There are a number of valve mfgs I deal with on h-equip that make some really tough shiznit for diesel engines but do not charge performance market prices.
All you really need are sodium filled exhaust valves and hollow stem intake valves.
The hollow stem intake reduces the chances for valve float and the valves run cooler.
The exhaust valves are filled with sodium.. Think lava lamp but also shaken (open and closing valves). The sodium melts at the bottom of the stem rises and cools then falls back down again. It really decreases exh valve temps. GM has it LS1 v8's, Subaru WRX, Mits Lancer EVO, Porsche... ETC performance gas engines true.. But here is a secret many comercial diesel equipement engines have the sodium filled exhaust valves. They last longer. You can use exotic alloys to withstand heat but you are better of disipating it the valve expands less and wears the seat less.
There are a number of valve mfgs I deal with on h-equip that make some really tough shiznit for diesel engines but do not charge performance market prices.
All you really need are sodium filled exhaust valves and hollow stem intake valves.
The hollow stem intake reduces the chances for valve float and the valves run cooler.
The exhaust valves are filled with sodium.. Think lava lamp but also shaken (open and closing valves). The sodium melts at the bottom of the stem rises and cools then falls back down again. It really decreases exh valve temps. GM has it LS1 v8's, Subaru WRX, Mits Lancer EVO, Porsche... ETC performance gas engines true.. But here is a secret many comercial diesel equipement engines have the sodium filled exhaust valves. They last longer. You can use exotic alloys to withstand heat but you are better of disipating it the valve expands less and wears the seat less.
10-15-2003, 06:27 PM
#26
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Re:Changing angle on valves
A ton of heat dissipation is also found in bronze guides.
Bronze is not too far from copper and we all know that copper is the conductor that all other metals are measured against!
Stellite has proven to work well in the Cummins. Sodium is super nice and if affordable I would not be afraid to try them. Stellite is a coating and the weight of the valve is another trouble. I like the light weight of the hollow cavity in any engine.
Don~
Bronze is not too far from copper and we all know that copper is the conductor that all other metals are measured against!
Stellite has proven to work well in the Cummins. Sodium is super nice and if affordable I would not be afraid to try them. Stellite is a coating and the weight of the valve is another trouble. I like the light weight of the hollow cavity in any engine.
Don~
10-15-2003, 07:29 PM
#27
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Floor It: Do you know what the type of material the exhaust valves are made of? Also, what do you know what the heat capacity is for the exhaust valves? Thanks for the help...
4x4
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10-15-2003, 08:48 PM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
Here is one possible source.
http://www.ganioglu.com/supar/sodyum/sodium_filled.htm
http://www.ganioglu.com/supar/katalog/***.htm
What are the dimensions of a 24v exhaust and intake valve?
Example
45mm x 7.9mm x 129mm
Head Diameter x Stem Diameter x Length
I don't have a service manual yet. I have them for everything from kubota to cat but no ISB manuals.
http://www.ganioglu.com/supar/sodyum/sodium_filled.htm
http://www.ganioglu.com/supar/katalog/***.htm
What are the dimensions of a 24v exhaust and intake valve?
Example
45mm x 7.9mm x 129mm
Head Diameter x Stem Diameter x Length
I don't have a service manual yet. I have them for everything from kubota to cat but no ISB manuals.
10-15-2003, 11:48 PM
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Re:Changing angle on valves
the valves from cummins I belive are sodium- they have the demple on the bottom of the exhaust, at least mine do. If I rember right this is the way to tell???
let me know
let me know