TexasHardcore

Hey guys...

in the "turbo world" I live in...the "B1" name/code means nothing, to anyone. Obviously a few guys decided to call a custom monster turbo they got good results from the "B1" and it stuck. It happens alot in the turbo industry...the customers/enthusisasts know the turbo by what it'd referred to, but the term means nothing in the industry, due the the amount of turbos that are in each family.

Can anyone tell me what the B1 starts out as and what is modified to consider it a B1?

I hear there are a few different variations of the B1...

if anyone can enlighten me on any of this information..It'd be appreciated.

wannadiesel

The turbo is made by Schwitzer, if that helps.

TexasHardcore

Anyone know the specs of this Schwitzaaaa?

kyle@ftlb

S300 if i'm not mistaken. But hey i'm not the Turbo Specialist

Push Rod

The B1 is a heavily modified S300 Schwitzer, however Turbo Auto Diesel, the builders of the B1 (rightly) won't go into what modifications are done to it. There are some Garett and Holset parts stuffed into it, and the turbine housings are further machined to accept the turbine wheels that they use (which are not S300 wheels).

Rod

1320

I ve always found it odd too, that the specs are either not known or talked about?

Not that hard to buy one and take it apart. It seems that virtually all venders don t know a thing about turbos. No offence to them, they don t need to be experts. I find it extremely suspicous that these "made" turbos cost 1400-2200 $ but the garret 3b I just bought was 400? All the same parts, physically similar, but a huge cost difference?

The machine costs simply are not that high , esspecialy considering doing any type of volume at all.

Don M

If you thiink the B-1 is expensive, check out the Turbonetics stuff Many of the turbos they sell are over 4 grand and up!

Push Rod

The airflow specs of the B1 compressor wheel are known (over 900 cfm at 42 PSI), however if the exact efficiency map was ever released, it would then make it possible to copy the charger, or at least discover which compressor wheel is being used.

As it is, there are 3 companies offering B1 knock-offs, despite Ken's best intentions of keeping the parts that go into the turbo secret. Why should he keep the parts secret? Because it was he, and his company, that invested the money to develop the charger (which is, in every sense of the term, a custom charger). As such, they deserve the cash reward at the end of it.

Let me turn that around. Why do the consumers need to know the exact parts that go into the charger? As long as the approximate compressor flows are known, the A/R on the turbine side is known, the reliability is known, and the performance is documented, what difference does it make to the parts that have went into them?

On the price side, there is far more into the price of a custom unit (not just the B1) than the raw materials and time to machine/build the units. R&D time (over 2 years to develop, and constant R&D since that time) and a certain portion of costs need to be added for the inevitable warranty claim. It doesn't take long for this stuff to add up.

Rod

1320

wow....I ve never seen one of those. Most of their higher doller stuff is around 1690 -2300. Thats for 76- 100 mm , p,q,r trim ball bearing turbos? They don t offer a dual ball bearing that I know of?

Shoot, I just bought a polished, t72 with their ball bearing option (which is only one) for 1000

1320

Rod, that isn t a comparable airflow #? The comressor map isn t secret either.....anyone could buy one, take it apart and figure out what was done to what wheel? R&D? I know its real.....but really itsa bunch of guys that are trying stuff, having fun at the same time. The parts are cheap, esspecially to the maker, probably have all kinds of stuff around to try out.

Why is it that you can call turbonetics, and they will tell you which wheel is in any turbo? which turbine? what size? which housing etc.....
You would think they must have some time and money invested in equipment and r &d but then freely give it away?

Are any of the deisel turbos even ball bearing? (I m not aware of any) but thats what companies like turbonetics charge for, their non ball bearing turbos are 700 to 1300 new......

I also have a brand new pt 72 from precision turbo that was 909 shipped to the door. Its a custom turbo as well.


Makes me wonder what the guy that made the turbo is thinking? All these people taking his idea......

Don M

Yeah, I think you are right. Turbonetics can be had for less than 4 grand. Their journal bearing turbos are not the least expensive, but not the highest either.

I priced a T-88 last year with them at 2500 if I remember correctly. It was in that range anyway, give or take a few pennys.
They have their own wheels and can control who gets them. What vendors, etc.

The B-1, since it is an OEM type wheel - can be had by anyone with a connection or a distributorship to Borg Warner.
This makes the originator of the idea more likely to keep things secret. Remove part numbers, etc. To keep the copycats at bay. It worked for a few years, but they have all been copied now!

Yep, any wheel can be sent to the maker and identified in a heartbeat. Blade pitch, tip height, etc. Part number or no part number, the maker can figure it out even it exploded, etc.

PTI has some interesting turbos. I think mostly from Garrett parts?

Don~

1320

pte is casting (or having ) their own exhuast housing done in atleast some cases.

Push Rod

1) I understand the compressor maps aren't exactly state secrets, but you also can't call up Schwitzer out of the blue and ask them for an efficiency map. I also understand that you can reverse engineer the turbo, as long as you have the necessary knowledge to do so. That knowledge, while not difficult, is also not commonly known, especially among many of the people who are currently building turbos for the diesel marketplace. For the casual lay-person, they couldn't simply open up the charger and figure out exactly what parts were being used. And hopefully, not everyone could just call Borg-Warner and find out what parts have been ordered.

2) The R&D may be fun, and the parts may not be all that expensive, but its still time consuming and people have to eat. You can't invest 2 years of your life for free. And whether or not something is fun, its still work, and as such, they deserve renumeration for it.

3) Their business decision. While I respect that Turbonetics does what they do, and agree its very useful for those with the knowledge to use the information, I also see where those who don't let their "secrets" out are coming from. While Turbonetics should be applauded for their openess, I don't think that the companies who prefer to keep things under their belts should be thought any less of.

4) I've never really discussed it with Ken. Personally, if it were me, I'd be offended. As a vendor of the real product, I am offended that other companies are building the knock-offs and calling them the real thing (as 1 company is doing. They've even buying an occasional B1 from TAD just to keep themselves "legit")

Rod

amartinson

If the developer of ANY product is not allowed to make a REASONABLE profit, why should anyone invest their time and money?

Products such as B1 turbos, EDM injectors, power boxes, and air intake systems probably would not exist for us to enjoy if the developers were expected to give their secrets and profits away in the end.

TexasHardcore

I'm not saying I'd try to reproduce this turbo... I just want to know what all the hype is about and what parts make it more special than the next.