OH-- a follow up.

This is why I recommend you choose your power combo based on the following:

1) Match your injectors to your turbo, and be conservative.

2) use your box to occupy the EGT margin between "perfectly safe" and "not for more than a few seconds".

3) If you tow heavy, go with smaller injectors. The less weight you tow, the bigger the injector you can run.

4) none of above really applies to twins, since you can tow with almost any injector, and overheating the radiator will be a bigger concern that EGT will.

Justin

 

I agree with your last sentence and Justin's comments.

At higher HP (400+), single turbo is a compromise. This trade off is furthur complicated, in my case, by an auto tranny. Other than heavy throttle, every shift, except into third, starts a new gear at about 1400 rpm!.

This is why I went with the B-1 brand. IMO, they give better combination of spoolup and lots of air at heavy throttle than any other single turbo.
But when I threw a PM3 into the mix, even though I'm getting 48-50 psi of fairly cool air, my TIP (drive pressures) seem to be sending EGT's very high. The PM3 put me over the limit of the KSB1-2.
Feel fortunate, Will be trying a KSB-1 shortly...will be very interested to see the difference. With Don M's injectors (not sure all EDM's are the same), it is easier than ever to drive around the smoke, so giving up some spoolup is less of a concern.

RJ

 

TDIDog,
If I flatfoot it and hold WOT throttle for 1/4 mile, I will get up to 1350. As for how it compares to the Dodgezilla, I have no experiance with one.

 

Found out the people making B-1's have changed their designs to new A/R ratios/HP rating for some models.

Think the KSB1-2 is now set up for faster spoolup and slightly lower HP-(maybe 350 hp max) and the KSB-1 I just received is closer in A/R to the B1-2 (450 HP +/-).

Hopefully Rod, or someone will give us full details.

RJ

 

Actually Rowland, the KSB1-2 is the same critter its always been, but the B1-2 and KSB1-1 have sorta swapped places in the lineup due to some changes on the turbine sides.

So in power handling, the line up now goes:

KSB1-2 (400), B1-2 (425), KSB1-1(450), B1(475+), B1 Steroid (500+). I haven't had a chance to update my web site yet, but it will be coming soon. The claims for the B1-2 and KSB1-1 are manufacturer claims right now. We'll be getting some test miles on them ourselves to determine what the changes really mean to our customers.

Rod

 

Hey Rod, if I was to get a KSB1-1-EX3 , could I convert it back to a EX4 housing down the road? Would that turbo keep my egt in check for now? I'm running dd2, comp box, dtt 89. Thanks eh guys. We'll get this stuff sorted out yet!

 

It should keep your EGTs in control, and you will be able to swap to an EX4 housing later. The housings run around that $5-$600 USD mark. I'm not sure if it was in this thread, or another one, but I _really_ dislike that EX3 outlet. Its just not big enough, and will raise EGTs up a significant amount (100-150F), so if you wanted to step to larger injectors, you'd need to swap housings first.

Rod

 

Rod, about the B1-2 you mentioned...

Hmm. R.ebel laid down 500hp with his B1-2 on a dynojet. That's a 12V w/ PDR goodies (head and cam, etc).

Is this B1-2 a different version that older B1-2s??


I understand that Kurt and Ken are constantly tweaking these things to make them better, but I HAVE to express my frustration at trying to stay on top of the changes. How can you pick the right B1 variant for your application if they are constantly changing???

Personally, I'm going with the larger wheel model. I can live with a little more lag in exchange for keeping more top end. Besides, then I can reach full B1 with just a housing swap.

Justin

 

1) The B1-2 hasn't changed, but since it was a new turbo 6 months ago, Ken (and others) have gathered more data on the charger to determine where it should be slotted in the lineup. The KSB1-1 did undergo a minor changes to open up the turbine side. As far as my horsepower numbers, versus what you can see on a dyno, my horsepower numbers are those that the turbo can support with semi-reasonable EGTs on the street. Actual dyno power may be much higher.

2) Its all part of the R&D game. You have to change so you don't get left behind. If Ken hadn't been constantly revising the original B1, it would not be anywhere near as good as it today. So, yes, its sometimes frustrating trying to keep up with the changes, but they're only for your benefit.

Rod

 

Eh? By that you mean KSB-1 right? Why does that mean more lag? If you meant B1-2 I don't think you have a full B1 with just a housing change right? Since even the builder can't seem to figure out where they go in the line up I'm about to try an HTB2 myself lol. How can a small housing turbo like KSB1 be rated at higher power than the larger housing B1-2? If that is really the case then what is the point of even having a B1-2? Laggier turbo rated at less HP... makes sense to me

 

I'm with you on the HTB2, lol.

Yes, you can take a KSB1 to a full B1 with a turbine housing swap, since the actual wheels are the same size.

I'm not sure the B1-2 is laggier than a KSb1, at least not with the new super duper turbine redo. If that were the case, I don't think it would sell to well, and I'd also say that Ken and Kurt are smart enough to realize a step backward if one occurs.

There's more to flow than turbine housing. If you put a tiny wheel in a huge housing you'll have very little flow. Remember-- all the gases have to flow through the wheel. The trick is matching the housing and wheel to get the A/R (area/radius) that you want to deliver the performance you seek.

Did we mention that the HTB2 is also cheaper than a B1?? Time and progress march on-- the jury's still out, but there might be a new heir to the B1 throne.

jlh

 

Forget all about housing sizes. They are pretty much meaningless unless you are comparing turbine housings with the same turbine wheel size. The only company that uses turbine sizing is Holset and I wish they'd pick a more meaningful measurement for their turbine housings.

What matters on the turbine side is simply how much gas it can pass. This is reflected by the AR ratio, and the changing of the KSB1-1 turbine side opened up its AR a hair, and moved it beyond the B1-2.

As far as whether the B1-2 is a worthwhile turbo to have in the lineup, we'll know more in the next few weeks. We've now got 1 new KSB1-1 on the street, with another following soon. We'll compare against what we know about the B1-2.

Rod

 

Actually not anymore. Spoke to them this morning and prices went up as of Friday. I'm not a turbo expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. That being said, does it make sense that the HTB2 with 12cm housing could cool 500hp and not have high drive pressure? Also what is meant by clipping and what are pros/cons?

 

Without knowing what size the exhaust wheel is, you can't tell from that 12cm measurement. Its completely meaningless.

Having said that, if they are using a Holset wheel and housing, Holset doesn't have anything in the 12cm turbine housing size that could possibly pass enough gas to keep drive pressures low at 500 HP.

Rod

 

I posted this in another thread:

Duke, I'm around 350+ hp (dynoed 390 but I don't buy it). I run the stock turbo and it's already too small. The oem housing and wheel definitely choke off flow in a HP application. For my power level, a 16cm housing would probably match a lot better.

How do I know that my turbine housing is too small without a drive pressure gauge? Well, it's kind of a feel thing. I can step on the loud pedal a bit a bring it up to 15psi, and it scoots out. If I bury the pedal and take the boost up to 32 psi, it really doesn't accelerate much faster!! I guess my turbine side is choking at about 25 psi.

We need to be clear: high boost doesn't necessarily mean high airflow! If drive pressure comes up faster than boost does, then your losing efficiency.

Keep in mind also that the OEM has a different goal for the turbo than you do. The stock HX35 is setup to deliver maximum spoolup with enough flow for 21 psi of boost. That means it's ALREADY a little on the tight side, right from the factory!

Now we take that stock engine and increase the fueling and raise boost, but leave the stock turbo in place. We've gone from being on the edge of the efficiency envelope (where the OEM puts it to lower emissions) to being WAY off the efficiency envelope.

Yes, the HX35 compressor side can be efficient up to 30+psi from what I under stand. But at those boost levels, the 12cm turbine housing is much too small.

Consider this: the Bank$ power pak includes a 14cm housing with their package. That means they feel a 14cm housing is necesary at only 300rwhp!!
http://bankspower.com/test_results_AD01.cfm

So how big a housing should I have at 350hp? I'm going to try the 16cm housing as it's a cheap upgrade.

jlh