B1 Lightning Turbo?
03-12-2004 | 09:58 AM
#16
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From: Aurora, Ontario
Originally posted by Jim Fulmer
DarrellB
You will not see a 250 degree drop in EGT's going from a 40 to a B-1.....Period......theoretically impossible and if someone will prove it I will promote it!
Jim
DarrellB
You will not see a 250 degree drop in EGT's going from a 40 to a B-1.....Period......theoretically impossible and if someone will prove it I will promote it!
Jim
03-12-2004 | 11:17 AM
#17
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From: In the Shop
I know you could not get a reduction of 250 degrees across the board, but in certain conditions of presure ratio, temperature, exhaust back pressure, etc you can in proven theory have that kind of reduction.
The surging is a common trait of turbos that have a larger compressor wheel and hence moves more air than either the OEM or a comparable turbo of the same size. You will never get a stock turbo on the Dodge to surge. It simply does not supply enough air to cause this. On the other hand you wont get that little stock wheel to supply enough air for adding too much power over stock without running into EGT troubles.
Compressor wheels that move too much air in the lower engine operating ranges are much more efficient for the higher HP applications in the mid to high operating ranges. Turbos work much like camshafts and have the same caveats. You cant have a long duration cam and have smooth idle in a gasser and you cant have a short duration cam and make as much power. Camshafts have a fixed size just like compressor wheels.
Some of the earlier models did surge and I can see how John P did have a problem towing with the amount of fuel and low airflow requirments at the lower operating ranges he had.
You match the requirments to the application. Would I put a 40 on a truck with a nitrous planned? No way! I would not even run methanol on most apps. A B-1 would stand the strain with ease while the 40 would grenade. Anyone remember the 760HP run Jetty made with a stock VP, Nitrous, and a B-1? I would not do that with a 40 and stand close to the engine compartment. All the little tricks you can do to a 40 wont make it live through that indefinantly.
40's work good in twin systems and below 450 HP as singles. Many B-1's work better past that. My understanding is that now the B-1's can be had in fast spooling versions and even for towing using compressor wheels of differing sizes. I ran a 40 at 480 HP for roughly 3000 miles and then upgraded to a 55 for EGT reasons. Well I wanted more HP too!
Don~
The surging is a common trait of turbos that have a larger compressor wheel and hence moves more air than either the OEM or a comparable turbo of the same size. You will never get a stock turbo on the Dodge to surge. It simply does not supply enough air to cause this. On the other hand you wont get that little stock wheel to supply enough air for adding too much power over stock without running into EGT troubles.
Compressor wheels that move too much air in the lower engine operating ranges are much more efficient for the higher HP applications in the mid to high operating ranges. Turbos work much like camshafts and have the same caveats. You cant have a long duration cam and have smooth idle in a gasser and you cant have a short duration cam and make as much power. Camshafts have a fixed size just like compressor wheels.
Some of the earlier models did surge and I can see how John P did have a problem towing with the amount of fuel and low airflow requirments at the lower operating ranges he had.
You match the requirments to the application. Would I put a 40 on a truck with a nitrous planned? No way! I would not even run methanol on most apps. A B-1 would stand the strain with ease while the 40 would grenade. Anyone remember the 760HP run Jetty made with a stock VP, Nitrous, and a B-1? I would not do that with a 40 and stand close to the engine compartment. All the little tricks you can do to a 40 wont make it live through that indefinantly.
40's work good in twin systems and below 450 HP as singles. Many B-1's work better past that. My understanding is that now the B-1's can be had in fast spooling versions and even for towing using compressor wheels of differing sizes. I ran a 40 at 480 HP for roughly 3000 miles and then upgraded to a 55 for EGT reasons. Well I wanted more HP too!
Don~
03-12-2004 | 11:49 AM
#18
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From: Laredo, Tx, 7 hours south of Dallas
Originally posted by DarrellB
I still got some shopping to do and will deffenently take you up on the offer at Muncie.
I still got some shopping to do and will deffenently take you up on the offer at Muncie.
The don't require as much boost to make the same HP as other turbo's.
We can make 518HP with BD4's, a COMP, and a Baby '55, running 45PSI boost.
My truck will be together soon (~Wednesday), and Darrell, I'll let you take mine for a ride at Muncie. It SHOULD be at 520RWHP, but we'll have to see. It's still on the hoist right now,,, as a matter of fact, I'd better get back to working on it.
Merrick
03-12-2004 | 12:54 PM
#19
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From: Laredo, Tx, 7 hours south of Dallas
Originally posted by banshee
You want to talk about lag? How about stomping the pedal to the floor and counting "one-thousand one, one-thousand two, one-thousand three"
You want to talk about lag? How about stomping the pedal to the floor and counting "one-thousand one, one-thousand two, one-thousand three"
But,, my turbo's are a little larger than most, once I'm at one-thousand-5, the intercooler inlet is seeing 120+PSI, and I haven't really found out what's after that as my speedo stops at 120, and parts don't seem to hold together much longer. Last time I counted to about one-thousand-10 and I tore out a flexplate.
Merrick
03-12-2004 | 01:26 PM
#22
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From: Austria Europe
I think that this thread is quite informative, so IMHO the personal insults and the mudslinging isn't really called for.
Banshee, JohnP- when did you try these B1 chargers? On what setup(s) of other engine mods did you try them? I think it's very good to be able to read all positive and negative experiences with a certain product, but since development goes on and since no two modified trucks are the same the part that fits your truck may or may not fit mine.
Darrel: Did you think about using your stock charger, maybe with a smaller housing as a secondary in twins? This should be perfect for lightning spoolup and enough air for your desired hp. (Just pondering relying on infos from this and other sites)
AlpineRAM
Banshee, JohnP- when did you try these B1 chargers? On what setup(s) of other engine mods did you try them? I think it's very good to be able to read all positive and negative experiences with a certain product, but since development goes on and since no two modified trucks are the same the part that fits your truck may or may not fit mine.
Darrel: Did you think about using your stock charger, maybe with a smaller housing as a secondary in twins? This should be perfect for lightning spoolup and enough air for your desired hp. (Just pondering relying on infos from this and other sites)
AlpineRAM
03-12-2004 | 01:43 PM
#23
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From: Maine
Just when I thought I was going to learn some stuff about turbos I get down to this garbage. Why must you guys ruin a great conversation with the petty quarrals about your preferences. 
I'll check out the other forums for a while and see if I can get actual information!
I'll check out the other forums for a while and see if I can get actual information!
03-12-2004 | 01:58 PM
#24
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From: In the Shop
Hey Banshee, Your an.............. Just kidding Man.
I believe the B-1 did not work for you and your father. Its only nature. We cant mold a turbo to be perfect for everyone.
Over the years the B-1 has gone through many changes and is turing out to be a sweetheart of a turbo in its many forms.
Others complained about the first gen B-1's too. I have no reason to not believe them. The complaints of durability are certinnly few and far between though. The earlier B-1's with large housings and their heavier, higher inertia shafts are just harder to spool.
The newer B-1's really seem to rock and roll on most trucks. Not all of them get rave reviews, but at the same time some of the guys complain about 40's too.
Im always willng to test any and all of them back to back with the blindfolds on if anyone is willing to donate to the cause.
Don~
I believe the B-1 did not work for you and your father. Its only nature. We cant mold a turbo to be perfect for everyone.
Over the years the B-1 has gone through many changes and is turing out to be a sweetheart of a turbo in its many forms.
Others complained about the first gen B-1's too. I have no reason to not believe them. The complaints of durability are certinnly few and far between though. The earlier B-1's with large housings and their heavier, higher inertia shafts are just harder to spool.
The newer B-1's really seem to rock and roll on most trucks. Not all of them get rave reviews, but at the same time some of the guys complain about 40's too.
Im always willng to test any and all of them back to back with the blindfolds on if anyone is willing to donate to the cause.
Don~
03-12-2004 | 02:05 PM
#25
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From: Aurora, Ontario
Don if I wasn't getting my truck out next week I would have sent you mine. If you want to play with it next winter you can have it for like 4 months. Too bad this all started so late in our winter season or I would have pulled it for ya to play with.
03-12-2004 | 02:25 PM
#26
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Cummins Technical Center, IN
Easy fellas!
Don, Rod, Markus, Merrick et al: thanks for your input. I think the the turbo development front is a really exciting area.
Much as injectors experienced revolutionary technological development in the last few years (Thanks Don), I think turbos will also see similar exciting developments.
Who knows what the future holds? A ball-bearing charger that actually lasts? One turbine hooked to two compressor wheels? A turbine hooked to a whipple-style charger? It's really a world of almost unlimited possibilities.
The new materials that are being developed will also allow much better turbos. Imagine a turbine wheel made of a cermet material or a lighter weight Inconel type alloy. We may soon see compressors made of plastic-- yes PLASTIC that is so strong and so light that you don't need to go to a BB cartridge to get instant spoolup. What about a turbine housing lined with a a trick thermal barrier coating that allows almost NO heat loss? Shafts that are so strong, they can be HALF as heavy and just a durable?
One thing to remember is rotational inertia. The larger the diameter of the wheel the more inertia it has-- even if it has the same mass. That means that a larger compressor would have to be LIGHTER than the a smaller one just to break even in the spoolup department. That's not easy.
One thing I want to know is why they dont make compressor wheels deeper than they are. It seems to me if your centrifugal compressor was more like a cylinder than a disc, that you would have a LOT less inertia for a given airflow. I am sure there's a reason this isn't done, but I would like to know what that reason is.
Justin
Don, Rod, Markus, Merrick et al: thanks for your input. I think the the turbo development front is a really exciting area.
Much as injectors experienced revolutionary technological development in the last few years (Thanks Don), I think turbos will also see similar exciting developments.
Who knows what the future holds? A ball-bearing charger that actually lasts? One turbine hooked to two compressor wheels? A turbine hooked to a whipple-style charger? It's really a world of almost unlimited possibilities.
The new materials that are being developed will also allow much better turbos. Imagine a turbine wheel made of a cermet material or a lighter weight Inconel type alloy. We may soon see compressors made of plastic-- yes PLASTIC that is so strong and so light that you don't need to go to a BB cartridge to get instant spoolup. What about a turbine housing lined with a a trick thermal barrier coating that allows almost NO heat loss? Shafts that are so strong, they can be HALF as heavy and just a durable?
One thing to remember is rotational inertia. The larger the diameter of the wheel the more inertia it has-- even if it has the same mass. That means that a larger compressor would have to be LIGHTER than the a smaller one just to break even in the spoolup department. That's not easy.
One thing I want to know is why they dont make compressor wheels deeper than they are. It seems to me if your centrifugal compressor was more like a cylinder than a disc, that you would have a LOT less inertia for a given airflow. I am sure there's a reason this isn't done, but I would like to know what that reason is.
Justin
03-12-2004 | 02:30 PM
#27
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From: Laredo, Tx, 7 hours south of Dallas
Originally posted by HOHN
One thing I want to know is why they dont make compressor wheels deeper than they are. It seems to me if your centrifugal compressor was more like a cylinder than a disc, that you would have a LOT less inertia for a given airflow. I am sure there's a reason this isn't done, but I would like to know what that reason is.
One thing I want to know is why they dont make compressor wheels deeper than they are. It seems to me if your centrifugal compressor was more like a cylinder than a disc, that you would have a LOT less inertia for a given airflow. I am sure there's a reason this isn't done, but I would like to know what that reason is.
Maybe it would heat the air too much?
Sounds like a good idea.
Merrick
03-12-2004 | 04:08 PM
#29
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From: Lanesville, IN
Guys thanks for all the good info. 
Like I said in my previous post, I have rode in John-P's truck with that B1 on it and I don't want anything that spools that slow. Banshee is right you could literally sit and count to about 3 or 4 waiting for it to spool.
(So I can see why John and Banshee want to let everyone know) I also understand that that was an older model B1 so I'm sure things have change a lot since that turbo was made.
Merrick,
I haven't ruled out one of J.R's 55 yet either, I know a guy that is running one now but I haven't had a chance to talk to him much about it and how quick it spools. It should help some that J.R. only lives about an hour of so away too.
Alpine Ram
Twins scare the heck out of me.
The oringing and fireringing the head and block is just not something I want to do or pay for. 
But if I had the $$$$$ to blow and was trying to win the HP race I would deffenently go that route.
Everyone Else
As far as the new B1's go I'm mostly worried about that surging, I really need to know how bad it can get? I do a lot of low speed hauling up and down the back roads of Southern Indiana and if that surge is so bad it will cause the truck to jurk I can't have that with 30K behind the truck. The truck has to remain a good hauler that is the one thing I'm sure of but I also need to do something about the EGT's as well. 
I'm not even thinking about an HX-40, I think I've done out HP'd one of them.
Keep the good info coming guys this is really helping out.
DB
Like I said in my previous post, I have rode in John-P's truck with that B1 on it and I don't want anything that spools that slow. Banshee is right you could literally sit and count to about 3 or 4 waiting for it to spool.
(So I can see why John and Banshee want to let everyone know) I also understand that that was an older model B1 so I'm sure things have change a lot since that turbo was made. Merrick,
I haven't ruled out one of J.R's 55 yet either, I know a guy that is running one now but I haven't had a chance to talk to him much about it and how quick it spools. It should help some that J.R. only lives about an hour of so away too.
Alpine Ram
Twins scare the heck out of me.
The oringing and fireringing the head and block is just not something I want to do or pay for. But if I had the $$$$$ to blow and was trying to win the HP race I would deffenently go that route. Everyone Else
As far as the new B1's go I'm mostly worried about that surging, I really need to know how bad it can get? I do a lot of low speed hauling up and down the back roads of Southern Indiana and if that surge is so bad it will cause the truck to jurk I can't have that with 30K behind the truck.
The truck has to remain a good hauler that is the one thing I'm sure of but I also need to do something about the EGT's as well. I'm not even thinking about an HX-40, I think I've done out HP'd one of them.
Keep the good info coming guys this is really helping out.
DB
03-12-2004 | 04:26 PM
#30
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From: Austria Europe
Originally posted by banshee
And AlpineRam, reread the thread and I think you'll find that it was Mr. hellotbone himself who decided to start the personal attacks. If anything thinks I'm going to just ignore ignorant comments like his then they are sorely mistaken.
And AlpineRam, reread the thread and I think you'll find that it was Mr. hellotbone himself who decided to start the personal attacks. If anything thinks I'm going to just ignore ignorant comments like his then they are sorely mistaken.
To make it perfectly clear: I don't think that mud-slinging or personal insult etc do have a place in this forum. I don't want to take part in that, I am reading these posts here for information and exchange of opinions and theories.
Hohn- If you compare the area of the circumference of the cylinder(or cone) that's formed by the compressor blades with the area of the inlet circle
there is a ratio that works best. Too large cone area compared to a too small inlet area will not yield good results since there is no air to be flung out for the rearward sections of the compressor. Since turbos work from centrifugal force a high speed of the circumference is desired to obtain high boost.
Darrel: I think that it is viable to make a twin set that won't be for the very high boost crowd, but just for good spoolup and very cool air up to 50psi. Just better spoolup than a single, and enough air for high power.
Just my 2c
AlpineRAM