24V motor out Rebuild.....what suggestions....HOT truck needed!
09-14-2004, 11:21 AM
#46
DTR Advertiser
John,
Knowing the average life of a forging from past experience leads me to the conclusion that a forged part should be tested long term before it is recommended to a guy who will street drive his truck for years on end.
No Diesel engine manufacturer that I know of has a forging in a production engine. Its not really a cost problem. Its long term durability issue for them. The fiber re-inforced, squeeze cast, and skirt coated piston from Cummins is just as expensive for them to produce than a forging would be.
The required piston to wall clearance being the best argument against using a forging. Large wall clearances can detroy the piston in small increments during the engine warm up cycle. Just ask around how many miles an engine will run with forged pistons in it from any experienced racer or engine builder.
High RPM and high heat engines that sled pull only or race only will benifit from a forged piston under certain circumstances. Like the Scheid truck. A cast piston in the Scheid truck is a waste of time. Failure could happen easily in that RPM and heat range. Its a short duty cycle engine and the budget is there to tear the engine down and go in once a season or so. Wildly different that 99.9% of us here want to do or need to do.
Don~
Knowing the average life of a forging from past experience leads me to the conclusion that a forged part should be tested long term before it is recommended to a guy who will street drive his truck for years on end.
No Diesel engine manufacturer that I know of has a forging in a production engine. Its not really a cost problem. Its long term durability issue for them. The fiber re-inforced, squeeze cast, and skirt coated piston from Cummins is just as expensive for them to produce than a forging would be.
The required piston to wall clearance being the best argument against using a forging. Large wall clearances can detroy the piston in small increments during the engine warm up cycle. Just ask around how many miles an engine will run with forged pistons in it from any experienced racer or engine builder.
High RPM and high heat engines that sled pull only or race only will benifit from a forged piston under certain circumstances. Like the Scheid truck. A cast piston in the Scheid truck is a waste of time. Failure could happen easily in that RPM and heat range. Its a short duty cycle engine and the budget is there to tear the engine down and go in once a season or so. Wildly different that 99.9% of us here want to do or need to do.
Don~
09-15-2004, 08:06 AM
#47
Administrator
OPIE:
Good to hear from you buddy!
Looks like you are getting
close to a rebuild yourself.
Still trying to get a few miles
on the new engine but will keep you posted. Take care
Steve!
---------
Don:
I feel as though we have "beat this subject to death!"
As I said in my earlier posts, you and I don't agree on
this and that is O.K. I will let you guys know how mine
hold up. Thanks for all your input though! You have to
admit Don, at least on this site we can "civilly" discuss
things without the wars we had on the "other" site!
Boy,.....I remember back to some of those old oil and
tranny discussions!!!
WOW!!!!!
Take care Don and keep up the good work!
--------
John_P
Good to hear from you buddy!
Looks like you are gettingclose to a rebuild yourself.
Still trying to get a few mileson the new engine but will keep you posted. Take care
Steve!
---------
Don:
I feel as though we have "beat this subject to death!"
As I said in my earlier posts, you and I don't agree on
this and that is O.K. I will let you guys know how mine
hold up. Thanks for all your input though! You have to
admit Don, at least on this site we can "civilly" discuss
things without the wars we had on the "other" site!
Boy,.....I remember back to some of those old oil and
tranny discussions!!!
WOW!!!!!Take care Don and keep up the good work!
--------
John_P
09-15-2004, 09:33 AM
#48
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 2,534
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....and that is why i love this site as well.....Thanks for all the info....got my juices flowing....Don...still havent yanked the engine....want to wait untill funds appear.....when they do....its on....thanks all!
Dan
Dan
09-15-2004, 11:54 AM
#49
Administrator
Mudinford:
From my end, you are very welcome buddy! I know that
is the case with Don too. Good luck on your rebuild. I hope
yours runs as good as mine when it is done.
Take care.
---------
John_P
From my end, you are very welcome buddy!
I know thatis the case with Don too. Good luck on your rebuild. I hope
yours runs as good as mine when it is done.
Take care.
---------
John_P
09-15-2004, 04:20 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...5&o=31&fpart=1
Here is a post from a Arais technician concerning their Forged pistons for the Powerstroke. Apparently reliablity has been a concern in all of their forged HP diesel pistons. I think this is a non-issue. There are a few Powerstrokes out there running these pistons without having issues.
Scroll down for the post, you can't miss it. The username is Arais.
Here is a post from a Arais technician concerning their Forged pistons for the Powerstroke. Apparently reliablity has been a concern in all of their forged HP diesel pistons. I think this is a non-issue. There are a few Powerstrokes out there running these pistons without having issues.
Scroll down for the post, you can't miss it. The username is Arais.
09-16-2004, 09:44 AM
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: FEDERAL WAY, WA
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by tons0torque
http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...5&o=31&fpart=1
Here is a post from a Arais technician concerning their Forged pistons for the Powerstroke. Apparently reliablity has been a concern in all of their forged HP diesel pistons. I think this is a non-issue. There are a few Powerstrokes out there running these pistons without having issues.
Scroll down for the post, you can't miss it. The username is Arais.
http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...5&o=31&fpart=1
Here is a post from a Arais technician concerning their Forged pistons for the Powerstroke. Apparently reliablity has been a concern in all of their forged HP diesel pistons. I think this is a non-issue. There are a few Powerstrokes out there running these pistons without having issues.
Scroll down for the post, you can't miss it. The username is Arais.
1. It sounds very expensive to try to make power with a Ford.
2. The Fords are keeping up with the Dodges?
One of the last replys on that thread read..."We trade info all the time and we will coninue to do this, Its the only way that we can keep up with the Dodge guys and it will be real real soon before the Dodge guys will be trying to check us,"
It's very rare to even see a Ford run at the track in my neck of the woods.
09-16-2004, 11:49 AM
#53
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Opie, yep these things ain't cheap. Of course what is nowadays. Cool thing is, if you want power from your Powerstroke, it's avaliable. Your probably not seeing a lot of Powerstrokes competing because some just aren't interested, or because some don't know that the parts are now avaliable to make a Powerstroke competitive.
Just keep in mind, Powerstroke performance wouldn't be avaliable without the parts that have come to market within the past few months.
Me, I can't wait till this things paid for.
Cool thing is, if you want power from your Powerstroke, it's avaliable. Your probably not seeing a lot of Powerstrokes competing because some just aren't interested, or because some don't know that the parts are now avaliable to make a Powerstroke competitive.Just keep in mind, Powerstroke performance wouldn't be avaliable without the parts that have come to market within the past few months.
Me, I can't wait till this things paid for.
09-16-2004, 02:40 PM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: FEDERAL WAY, WA
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tons,
So your saying we are going to see some competitive Powerstrokes soon?
Are you planning on some of them mods after your truck is paid for?
Most everytime you hear about a wicked up Powerstroke it turns out to have a short life. I was under the impression it was a bottom end/block issue.
So your saying we are going to see some competitive Powerstrokes soon?
Are you planning on some of them mods after your truck is paid for?
Most everytime you hear about a wicked up Powerstroke it turns out to have a short life. I was under the impression it was a bottom end/block issue.
09-16-2004, 04:37 PM
#55
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Opie, yes sir you will see some more competitive Powerstrokes out there. It might take a while for big powered trucks to start showing up in your neck of the woods, but eventually you'll start seeing them.
One of the big reasons for bottom end failures on the Powerstroke has been timing. 30 degrees and these motors just don't work.
Here is one of the main reasons you'll start seeing more and more competitve Powerstrokes....
http://home.comcast.net/~gdapron/P9090619.JPG
You can't miss it.
There are several manufactures of aftermarket high pressure oil pumps for the Powerstroke right now. These things have the ability to add mucho power with the right injectors and turbocharger to a Powerstroke.
The people pioneering most of the hard parts have been Casey and Zane at wide open performance; not to mention Bryan Kinney and Brian Thompson at BTS.
Casey is going to have a wicked nasty rig when's all said and done.....
One of the big reasons for bottom end failures on the Powerstroke has been timing. 30 degrees and these motors just don't work.
Here is one of the main reasons you'll start seeing more and more competitve Powerstrokes....
http://home.comcast.net/~gdapron/P9090619.JPG
You can't miss it.
There are several manufactures of aftermarket high pressure oil pumps for the Powerstroke right now. These things have the ability to add mucho power with the right injectors and turbocharger to a Powerstroke.
The people pioneering most of the hard parts have been Casey and Zane at wide open performance; not to mention Bryan Kinney and Brian Thompson at BTS.
Casey is going to have a wicked nasty rig when's all said and done.....
09-16-2004, 08:36 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Gardena CA
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First I would like to thank everyone who uses The arias product.
I would like address some of the issues on this subject.
John P.
Thank you for feeling so strong about your Arias Pistons. You made a wise choice on your product. The pistons that you purchased from Scheid Diesel are top notch. These particular pistons that Scheid Diesel sells are manufactured specifically for this motor. Scheid has allot of R&D time into these and if they felt they where not a good quality product they would not sell them.
The problem that I see is everyone is trying to make pistons these days for the diesels. Some are successful and some are not.
With the piston companies that are not successful this where the bad name for a forged piston comes in.
All pistons are not the same. You have different types of aluminum available now days so the quality of the product just keeps getting better every day.
I do agree with Don M on some of his concerns. But you all have to keep in mind these are some of Scheid Diesel and Arias concerns too.
Arias tries to manufacture only the best product so you the customer is satisfied with his or her product.
These pistons that Scheid sells have close to one hundred man hours in the design alone and are tested for longevity and reliability.
I see allot of customers that rebuild there motors at 100.000 thousand miles for one reason or another. But Most of my customers rebuild there motors because of a piston failure.
So now this is the question I have.
Do you want to be the one who wants the same failure over and over with the stock OEM piston OR Do you want to be the Customer that fixes the problem the first time. You make the decision.
If you have any question regarding these particular Diesel pistons Please feel free to contact Scheid Diesel @765-471-0355 or contact Tom at Arias @310-332-9737
I would like address some of the issues on this subject.
John P.
Thank you for feeling so strong about your Arias Pistons. You made a wise choice on your product. The pistons that you purchased from Scheid Diesel are top notch. These particular pistons that Scheid Diesel sells are manufactured specifically for this motor. Scheid has allot of R&D time into these and if they felt they where not a good quality product they would not sell them.
The problem that I see is everyone is trying to make pistons these days for the diesels. Some are successful and some are not.
With the piston companies that are not successful this where the bad name for a forged piston comes in.
All pistons are not the same. You have different types of aluminum available now days so the quality of the product just keeps getting better every day.
I do agree with Don M on some of his concerns. But you all have to keep in mind these are some of Scheid Diesel and Arias concerns too.
Arias tries to manufacture only the best product so you the customer is satisfied with his or her product.
These pistons that Scheid sells have close to one hundred man hours in the design alone and are tested for longevity and reliability.
I see allot of customers that rebuild there motors at 100.000 thousand miles for one reason or another. But Most of my customers rebuild there motors because of a piston failure.
So now this is the question I have.
Do you want to be the one who wants the same failure over and over with the stock OEM piston OR Do you want to be the Customer that fixes the problem the first time. You make the decision.
If you have any question regarding these particular Diesel pistons Please feel free to contact Scheid Diesel @765-471-0355 or contact Tom at Arias @310-332-9737
09-16-2004, 11:51 PM
#57
DTR Advertiser
Pistons in the Cummins engines rarely fail. I cant think of a single failure from a stock Cummins piston that was not caused by abuse or neglect. Even the hard milers that run 300,000 plus miles towing all over the country with a heavy trailer on their backs.
I ran mine to 200,000 miles with over 500 HP for 80,000 of that. 625 HP for about 15000 miles with heavy abuse and 60 to 73 pounds of boost. My pistons did not fail from anything more than eating turbos and the related parts.
The overwhelming number of people who use their trucks for towing, daily driving and generally want a bunch of miles out of them should never use a forged piston.
If you run maximum effort engines in 300 foot bursts on a sled pulling track or run it down the 1/4 mile..... the forged piston has alot to offer.
ARIAS,
How many miles do you feel the ARIAS piston will go in the following scenerios:
1) Average Joe that tows his travel trailer and runs the EGT in the 1300 degree range all day long. 300 HP
2) Weekend Warrior that runs at the drag strip from time to time, Light to light playing around, etc. 475 - 500 HP. Never exceeds 1500 degrees of EGT for extended periods. 60 pounds of boost
3) High power junkie that has just purchased his truck and has cranked the power to over 600 HP. EGT's go to 1600 for short bursts. Runs 70 pounds of boost and runs the heck of it on the street and the track. High boost launchs from the stripe.
The answer to these questions using a stock piston, RV275 piston or a Marine piston from Cummins is:
1) 300,000 with normal oil changes intervals. This plays out all over the country with the Cummins.
2) 240,000 again easily
3) 200,000 " " I know because I did it. And my EGT's were off the gage for extended periods. The enige was terribly abused.
All of the engines above would without a doubt run much longer.
Don~
I ran mine to 200,000 miles with over 500 HP for 80,000 of that. 625 HP for about 15000 miles with heavy abuse and 60 to 73 pounds of boost. My pistons did not fail from anything more than eating turbos and the related parts.
The overwhelming number of people who use their trucks for towing, daily driving and generally want a bunch of miles out of them should never use a forged piston.
If you run maximum effort engines in 300 foot bursts on a sled pulling track or run it down the 1/4 mile..... the forged piston has alot to offer.
ARIAS,
How many miles do you feel the ARIAS piston will go in the following scenerios:
1) Average Joe that tows his travel trailer and runs the EGT in the 1300 degree range all day long. 300 HP
2) Weekend Warrior that runs at the drag strip from time to time, Light to light playing around, etc. 475 - 500 HP. Never exceeds 1500 degrees of EGT for extended periods. 60 pounds of boost
3) High power junkie that has just purchased his truck and has cranked the power to over 600 HP. EGT's go to 1600 for short bursts. Runs 70 pounds of boost and runs the heck of it on the street and the track. High boost launchs from the stripe.
The answer to these questions using a stock piston, RV275 piston or a Marine piston from Cummins is:
1) 300,000 with normal oil changes intervals. This plays out all over the country with the Cummins.
2) 240,000 again easily
3) 200,000 " " I know because I did it. And my EGT's were off the gage for extended periods. The enige was terribly abused.
All of the engines above would without a doubt run much longer.
Don~
09-17-2004, 01:30 AM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: stupid ohio
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Don M
3) High power junkie that has just purchased his truck and has cranked the power to over 600 HP. EGT's go to 1600 for short bursts. Runs 70 pounds of boost and runs the heck of it on the street and the track. High boost launchs from the stripe.
Don~
3) High power junkie that has just purchased his truck and has cranked the power to over 600 HP. EGT's go to 1600 for short bursts. Runs 70 pounds of boost and runs the heck of it on the street and the track. High boost launchs from the stripe.
Don~
THAT WASN'T ME AND I CAN PROVE IT!!
brandon. (egt's never been over 1280)
09-17-2004, 09:58 AM
#60
DTR Advertiser
Ceramic? Its already been done. The diamond machining to make them from a solid chunk is so expensive you would need to take a second mortage out on your house.
In the end...the cost is close to 7000 bucks. This is with me taking the R&D, NC programming and the set ups in the shorts. Its just not worth it for anyone at this point.
If you have serious high output engine in the works. The forged pistons are the way to go. If you have a massive budget and cost is no option, our ceramics will allow you to run even tighter tolerances than a cast piston. Down to .002" No scuffing. Lower weight, blah blah blah. Long term durability is insane. The ceramics wont melt in an internal combustion engine either. No matter kind of EGT you run. You will melt the block away from the piston first
Don~
In the end...the cost is close to 7000 bucks. This is with me taking the R&D, NC programming and the set ups in the shorts. Its just not worth it for anyone at this point.
If you have serious high output engine in the works. The forged pistons are the way to go. If you have a massive budget and cost is no option, our ceramics will allow you to run even tighter tolerances than a cast piston. Down to .002" No scuffing. Lower weight, blah blah blah. Long term durability is insane. The ceramics wont melt in an internal combustion engine either. No matter kind of EGT you run. You will melt the block away from the piston first
Don~