[quote author=BigBlue link=board=7;threadid=9621;start=0#91984 date=1042567691]<br>This bindup shift must go unnoticed cause I can't feel when the tranny is binding up at all in mine.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Bill does address this by saying you can't feel it because of the mass of the truck.<br><br>Mike

 

<br><br><br><br>Bills explanation of what causes a binding shift is interesting reading. I read on the DTT sight that Bill caused a binding shift that was so harsh the rear tires on Stefan’s truck locked up. For a lockup like that to happen the transmission would have to be in two gears at the same time. Not to mention killing the engine if the torque converter was also locked up. Enough force would have to be applied to the bands or clutches of both gears so nothing could slip.<br> I really want to understand what could happen in a transmission that would cause such a binding shift. After reading the explanation from DTT I have a question. I am not attempting to start a fire. I do want to understand. From DTT;s explanation it sounds on one hand like they have the problem solved but then at the end they say the problem still exists. I have quoted some things from Bill’s post to show what I am getting at.<br><br>“Chrysler accomplishes the 2-3 bind up shift based on the volume of oil. It takes less volume of oil to apply 3rd gear clutches. It takes more volume of oil to release 2nd gear. So the third gear clutches have already come on before the 2nd gear band is completely released. The result is your 2-3 bind up shift. ( this means both gears are on at the same time ) .”<br><br>“DTT’s 3rd gear Billet Piston is another special component designed to deal with the 2-3 bind up. The DTT piston was engineered to allow the 2nd gear band to release before the 3rd gear clutch comes on.” “In simple terms DTT changed the volume.”<br><br>If the volume of the 3rd gear piston and cylinder were changed by DTT so that second gear had to be released before third gear could be applied then a binding shift should be eliminated. According to Bill’s explanation it is a factor of volume. It takes the same volume to apply the third gear clutches every time. It takes the same volume of fluid to release second gear band every time. The pressure in the governor circuit could not change the volume.<br><br>“When you are dealing with a throttle valve and the governor circuit you are now dealing with time. The time it takes to complete the shift is dependent on the amount of throttle pressure or governor pressure. Pascal’s law governs all this.&quot;<br><br>If the pressure is at 20 or 500psi the volume of the cylinders is still constant. <br>At a lower pressure the shift would take longer. The velocity of the fluid moving from the second gear cylinder to the third would be reduced and it would take more time. But in a DTT transmission the second gear band still has to be released before the third gear clutches can be applied. <br><br>“When guys start messing around with throttle pressure or governor pressure variation of even 2 or 3 psi in the wrong direction it can cause the shift valve to momentarily stop its motion dramatically shortening the life of the transmission.”<br><br>Stefan or Bill the question I have is.<br>In a DTT transmission can the shift valve stopping due to low pressure in the governor circuit cause the third gear clutches be applied before the second gear band is released?<br>

 

[quote author=Stefan link=board=7;threadid=9621;start=0#92445 date=1042659477]<br>We did carry the post over to the discussion forum as well so it is accessable if guys have more questions for Bill.<br>[/quote]<br> :<br><br>According to some the tranny shift pattern is 1-2-1-3. How can you have a 2-3 bind up if it doesn't shift from 2nd to 3rd?

 

It seems that nobody wants to answer my question.

 

StakeMan where did you find info like that about shifting...Ive never heard of that kind of shifting ??

 

Pappyman<br><br>Jack Thorpe posted this quote from Bill Kondolay you may want to send him a pm and ask where he found it.<br><br>QUOTE<br>&quot;Band adjustments especially the front band are critical because of the Dodge shift pattern. A dodge trans shifts 1-2, back to 1st then into 3rd. If the 2nd band does not release before the third gear clutches come on, you will have a bind up which will shorten the life of the transmission. I usually go a little looser than factory specs on this front band. Depending on the circumstances i have backed off the band <br>up to 2 1/2 turns. <br>Bill K &quot;

 

OK that makes sence...its how the shifting bands operate not how the tranny shifts (so you would not feel it)...cause I know if the tranny shifted into 1st before going into 3rd the RPM's would race...the bands shift this way but you never feel it...I looked at Bills site but never checked the post about band adjustment...the only thing I know about auto's is when I was trained to rebuild Allison trannys but that was 25 years ago and I never used that training ??? ???

 

I think pappyman wins the prize.

 

Ah, the English language.<br>The use of the term &quot;bind up&quot; brings visions of all sorts of mayhem while &quot;overlap&quot; seems less extreme. In his article, Bill uses the term bind up when overlap would probably be more appropriate. Some degree of overlap is necessary for a smooth 2-3 upshift. <br>If the band releases too soon, there will be engine rpm flareup during the upshift and if the front clutch applies too soon before the band releases there will be the bind up that feels like the brakes were momentarily applied but with the proper period of overlap where the band barely releases its grip just as the clutches barely take hold, there will be perfect continuity.

 

[quote author=ZONE5AB link=board=7;threadid=9621;start=15#95760 date=1043359669]<br>Ah, the English language.<br>The use of the term &quot;bind up&quot; brings visions of all sorts of mayhem while &quot;overlap&quot; seems less extreme. In his article, Bill uses the term bind up when overlap would probably be more appropriate. Some degree of overlap is necessary for a smooth 2-3 upshift. <br>If the band releases too soon, there will be engine rpm flareup during the upshift and if the front clutch applies too soon before the band releases there will be the bind up that feels like the brakes were momentarily applied but with the proper period of overlap where the band barely releases its grip just as the clutches barely take hold, there will be perfect continuity.<br>[/quote]<br><br>In other words a properly adjusted tranny?

 

<br> <br> <br> <br>inarush76<br><br><br>Registered: Feb 2000<br>Location: ovilla,tx,usa<br>Posts: 165<br> Let's see. Speaking in terms of first through third only. <br>First gear=low roller, rr clutch <br>second gear=intermediate band, rr clutch <br>third gear=front clutch, rr clutch <br>First gear to second gear shift is simply band comes on, low roller free wheels. <br><br>Second gear to third gear shift is band releases and front clutch applies. <br><br>Now if those who stir the pot would study power flow they would see that if the band releases before the front clutch applies the low roller will apply due to drum release and voila, first gear. <br><br>Now, if the front clutch applies(begins to hold) before the band releases(holds the drum that contains front clutch) you have the 2-3 bind(two gears at once). <br><br>This all happens in short periods of time. A slight 2-3 bind up is not felt in many cases due to the torque in these trucks just pulling through it. Though it can be seen with a pressure gauge. <br>A 2-3 bind can shorten the life of the band and front clutch as it subjects both to undue stress and heat. <br><br>If the band releases the drum before the front clutch starts to hold you get a flare(slight rpm increase). Looking at the power flow it shows rr clutch, band off, low roller holds= first gear until the front clutch applies with rr clutch and it's in third. <br><br>These are timing issues between apply and release of friction elements. <br><br>The facts are: these trans do shift 1-2-1-3 in a perfect world where there is no 2-3 bind. So, once again it shows Bill was correct in his statement while others just look for places to use sarcasm and fish for knowledge they obviously can't get any where else while trying to cloud the issue. No finger pointing or name calling, just an observation. Give Bill credit for KNOWING the Dodge trans and how it works and leave it at that. <br><br>Hope this sheds some light on this. I apologize if unclear, I'm a trans builder not a literary master. <br>Sorry for the long post. My carpal tunnel is not happy. <br><br>James <br>DTT builder/installer<br> <br> <br> <br>

 

[quote author=AlpineRAM link=board=7;threadid=9621;start=0#92484 date=1042669485]<br><br><br><br>[/quote]<br><br><br>When I said &quot;some people&quot; I meant Bill Kondolay. Sounds like inarush76 doesn't agree with Bill.

 

[quote author=Bob Wagner link=board=7;threadid=9621;start=15#96045 date=1043420537]<br> <br> <br> <br> <br>inarush76<br><br><br>Registered: Feb 2000<br>Location: ovilla,tx,usa<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>The facts are: these trans do shift 1-2-1-3 in a perfect world where there is no 2-3 bind. So, once again it shows Bill was correct in his statement while others just look for places to use sarcasm and fish for knowledge they obviously can't get any where else while trying to cloud the issue. No finger pointing or name calling, just an observation. Give Bill credit for KNOWING the Dodge trans and how it works and leave it at that. <br><br><br><br>James <br>DTT builder/installer<br> <br> <br> <br><br>[/quote]<br><br><br><br>Stake are you losing it ? ???

 

inarush76<br><br>Bob Wagner, you forgot on thing! He's my tranny builder <br><br>I'm thinking he know what's going on! Let's see I'm 38 next month and James started building tranny's when I was 9.<br><br>Jim

 

Fulmer, your older than me? No way say it aint so, I thought I was the fossil of the bunch

Don~

BTW,

DTT IS JUNK!!! hahahaha just kidding of course.