This is WAY off topic...But...
04-14-2005, 07:30 PM
#47
I'm not saying that desertion is acceptable nor that it doesn't warrant the cat of nine tails penalty, but why would anybody here report somebody deserting? What does anybody have to gain from doing that? Yay, you turned somebody in for desertion; does this make you feel better about yourself or what? Do you not like the deserter and so you report him? What do you personally have to gain from reporting him. You have no right to screw with his life "because it helps him in the long run". He knows what he's doing with his life. No reason to turn him in.
You life, property, security or anything else is not placed in harms way by letting a deserter walk the streets. Not saying it's acceptable, but why would you turn him in? It's not like he's hindering the defense of the nation because he's not going to end up on the front lines anyways.
Turning in a deserter makes less sense than reporting in somebody who's vehicle emits too much smoke; at least somebody has a stake in the environment which is being damaged with the smoke. But for the deserter, nothing is at threat.
A robber, rapist, murderer, etc. I can see you turning in. But a deserter? That to me seems like a tattle tale that somebody tells to feel better about yourself.
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion. If deserters came to live by me I wouldn't agree with them, but I wouldn't screw up their lives for what isn't my buisness anyways.
You life, property, security or anything else is not placed in harms way by letting a deserter walk the streets. Not saying it's acceptable, but why would you turn him in? It's not like he's hindering the defense of the nation because he's not going to end up on the front lines anyways.
Turning in a deserter makes less sense than reporting in somebody who's vehicle emits too much smoke; at least somebody has a stake in the environment which is being damaged with the smoke. But for the deserter, nothing is at threat.
A robber, rapist, murderer, etc. I can see you turning in. But a deserter? That to me seems like a tattle tale that somebody tells to feel better about yourself.
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion. If deserters came to live by me I wouldn't agree with them, but I wouldn't screw up their lives for what isn't my buisness anyways.
04-15-2005, 01:42 PM
#48
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Originally posted by Begle1
I'm not saying that desertion is acceptable nor that it doesn't warrant the cat of nine tails penalty, but why would anybody here report somebody deserting?
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion. If deserters came to live by me I wouldn't agree with them, but I wouldn't screw up their lives for what isn't my buisness anyways.
I'm not saying that desertion is acceptable nor that it doesn't warrant the cat of nine tails penalty, but why would anybody here report somebody deserting?
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion. If deserters came to live by me I wouldn't agree with them, but I wouldn't screw up their lives for what isn't my buisness anyways.
Why just officers and high enlisted men? EVERY SINGLE member of the armed forces has an obligation to turn in a deserter.
No RIGHT? You're correct in that we don't have a RIGHT to turn in law breaker; it's not an issue of rights. It's an issue of obligation. And we all share that obligation in a free society if we want to keep it that way.
There are many threads on this and other forums about the moral decay of society and this "it's not my business" is a part of that. I'm not advocating we all run out and start ratting out our neighbors, friends and family, but when something trips your line of "it's not right" then you do something about it. If someone else does, then you accept that for them that was the right thing to do and don't judge them for it.
As for you screwing up their lives - I'm sorry, but that's a pretty **** self important opinion. What makes you think you'd be screwing up their lives?? THEY screwed up their lives, not you by calling the cops. They did it when they broke the law or deserted or whatever.
04-15-2005, 01:47 PM
#49
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Begle1, so if I interpret your outlook it's something like ... Im' OK, you're OK, and anybody can do anything that they like as long as it doen't impact on your life. Does a person have to have a vested interest in reporting a crime? of any nature?? Abandoning your post (desertion) amounts to aiding the enemy. You might say "But it's only one person", but it takes a lot of "one persons" to make a team or in this case an army.
It's a volunteer force, if you sign up then you have to accept the responsibility that goes with it. If not then you must accept the penalties.
Grrrrrrrr.
Ken
It's a volunteer force, if you sign up then you have to accept the responsibility that goes with it. If not then you must accept the penalties.
Grrrrrrrr.
Ken
04-15-2005, 05:50 PM
#50
You have something to gain in calling in a drunk drivier- the self-satisfication in knowing that you tried your best to stop an injury. The satisfaction in knowing that you helped others and won't have future guilt- helping others (except in the condition of love) is a self-intrest motivated action.
So lets say that it is good to call in a crimical who is harming yourself or somebody else. Or the environment, or the world, or global relations, or your self esteem, or your doggie, or your grass by walking across it in cleats.
But a deserter... You could say that by calling in the deserter you are propagating the message that desertion will not be tolerated and therefore decreasing the rate of future desertion and increasing the integrity and reputation of the USAF. This is unrealistic for a number of reasons, mainly because desertion will never be a large problem because people know what they are in the armed forces for and wouldn't ever desert. Not only that, but deserters know the consequences and choose them anyways; if a man doesn't want to serve, he won't serve. If you conscript people and put guns to their heads, there are still those who will not serve and would rather be killed on the spot. And honestly, deserters are probably better off out of the USAF anyways. They are probably contributing more to the integrity of the USAF by not putting their rat tails in the structure then they would be by using the government's money and time in the brig. A deserter does not believe in the cause; you can't force someone in that position to serve. Better off without them.
So why would anybody call in a deserter? The only reason I can honestly come up with is that it satisfies some arrogant sense of superiority. I don't see how anybody is being helped through the matter, so the only gain to be had is through some kind of internal mental algorithm. You aren't preventing any harm in my point of view; actually, you're causing it.
So lets say that it is good to call in a crimical who is harming yourself or somebody else. Or the environment, or the world, or global relations, or your self esteem, or your doggie, or your grass by walking across it in cleats.
But a deserter... You could say that by calling in the deserter you are propagating the message that desertion will not be tolerated and therefore decreasing the rate of future desertion and increasing the integrity and reputation of the USAF. This is unrealistic for a number of reasons, mainly because desertion will never be a large problem because people know what they are in the armed forces for and wouldn't ever desert. Not only that, but deserters know the consequences and choose them anyways; if a man doesn't want to serve, he won't serve. If you conscript people and put guns to their heads, there are still those who will not serve and would rather be killed on the spot. And honestly, deserters are probably better off out of the USAF anyways. They are probably contributing more to the integrity of the USAF by not putting their rat tails in the structure then they would be by using the government's money and time in the brig. A deserter does not believe in the cause; you can't force someone in that position to serve. Better off without them.
So why would anybody call in a deserter? The only reason I can honestly come up with is that it satisfies some arrogant sense of superiority. I don't see how anybody is being helped through the matter, so the only gain to be had is through some kind of internal mental algorithm. You aren't preventing any harm in my point of view; actually, you're causing it.
04-15-2005, 09:38 PM
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I will have to disagree with you Begle1 on this one, it is our duty to turn him in as he signed on the dotted line he will serve or else, we cannot condone the act of desertion by waving at it with a stick made up of {it does not concern me attitude} Just my 2 cents. But deserters need to tow the line in my book. Goodluck,,Rick
04-15-2005, 10:40 PM
#52
Originally posted by HOHN
Excellent post, sir.
Let me say this: I'm pretty informal as far as military captains go. I joke around with my troops from time to time and they with me. We have barbecues and we all get along pretty well. They don't report in to see me- they just knock. We talk cars and sports and what have you.
But they KNOW as surely as they are breathing that I *will* hold them accountable for their actions. DUI? Beat your wife? Miss an appointment? Drug use? HELL'S BELLS-- YOU WILL REGRET THE DAY YOU WERE BORN. I will prosecute you to the fullest extent possible. I will see that LOCs and LORS are just greasing the skids to get that Article 15 and send you packing. We are a volunteer force, and we CANNOT afford to be anything less than the best. You volunteered to come here, so there are NO excuses.
There have been times when it was the grace of God that kept me from ending my career by choking the crap out of some scumbag that really needed it. I thought I was going to pop a vein. She even threatened to get back at me by fabricating a claim of sexual harassment. I told her that I WISH she had *some* kind of excuse, and that because she didn't, she needed to just own her actions and move on.
Some of these kids now are pretty thin-skinned and lazy. Heaven forbid that PT is HARD-- that I make you push yourself. If I can do it at age 30, then you better dern well expect that I will hold you to that standard when you are 22!
But these lazy troops are far outnumbered by the amazing, quality people I get. One thing I love about my job is that I get professional performance from young kids that many leaders/managers would die to have-- and my troops do it for less money than you'd ever believe.
I'm sending ELEVEN people over to Iraq (1/3 of all my manning), where they will pull duty as truck gunners. These are USAF vehicle operators (drive truck, forklift, wrecker, etc) and they are going to be playing Army. I've already had two Bronze Star winners, a slew of Army Commendation Medal winners, and a Purple Heart (rec'd by 20 y.o. troop).
I've got EIGHT troops VOLUNTEERING to go! Some are volunteering to go BACK after already being over there 8 months last year.
I'd like to think that this is a reflection of my officership, but I know better. They'd be the same great troops under anyone else-- they were before I got here, and they will be afterward.
I think about getting out and going into civilian employment. But I think I am spoiled to be surrounded by such a high percentage of high-caliber people. It seems like any other job would be less somehow-- no matter what it pays.
America, if you could see these troops in action, you would be inspired, as I am each and every day. Your future is in good hands.
Your DTR USAF Captain, 21R3 LRO
Excellent post, sir.
Let me say this: I'm pretty informal as far as military captains go. I joke around with my troops from time to time and they with me. We have barbecues and we all get along pretty well. They don't report in to see me- they just knock. We talk cars and sports and what have you.
But they KNOW as surely as they are breathing that I *will* hold them accountable for their actions. DUI? Beat your wife? Miss an appointment? Drug use? HELL'S BELLS-- YOU WILL REGRET THE DAY YOU WERE BORN. I will prosecute you to the fullest extent possible. I will see that LOCs and LORS are just greasing the skids to get that Article 15 and send you packing. We are a volunteer force, and we CANNOT afford to be anything less than the best. You volunteered to come here, so there are NO excuses.
There have been times when it was the grace of God that kept me from ending my career by choking the crap out of some scumbag that really needed it. I thought I was going to pop a vein. She even threatened to get back at me by fabricating a claim of sexual harassment. I told her that I WISH she had *some* kind of excuse, and that because she didn't, she needed to just own her actions and move on.
Some of these kids now are pretty thin-skinned and lazy. Heaven forbid that PT is HARD-- that I make you push yourself. If I can do it at age 30, then you better dern well expect that I will hold you to that standard when you are 22!
But these lazy troops are far outnumbered by the amazing, quality people I get. One thing I love about my job is that I get professional performance from young kids that many leaders/managers would die to have-- and my troops do it for less money than you'd ever believe.
I'm sending ELEVEN people over to Iraq (1/3 of all my manning), where they will pull duty as truck gunners. These are USAF vehicle operators (drive truck, forklift, wrecker, etc) and they are going to be playing Army. I've already had two Bronze Star winners, a slew of Army Commendation Medal winners, and a Purple Heart (rec'd by 20 y.o. troop).
I've got EIGHT troops VOLUNTEERING to go! Some are volunteering to go BACK after already being over there 8 months last year.
I'd like to think that this is a reflection of my officership, but I know better. They'd be the same great troops under anyone else-- they were before I got here, and they will be afterward.
I think about getting out and going into civilian employment. But I think I am spoiled to be surrounded by such a high percentage of high-caliber people. It seems like any other job would be less somehow-- no matter what it pays.
America, if you could see these troops in action, you would be inspired, as I am each and every day. Your future is in good hands.
Your DTR USAF Captain, 21R3 LRO
****, you make me wish I never left the Air Force. Keep up the good work.
As far as the deserter. turn him in without jeopardizing your own job. Let us know how it all turns out.
04-16-2005, 08:42 AM
#53
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Originally posted by crobtex
This boils my blood. I would not hesitate to turn him or any other scumbag deserter in!
Some claim to have good reason to be AWOL. If that was the case, it would be AWL.
As a matter-of-fact, PM me enough info and I'll take care of it from here.
This boils my blood. I would not hesitate to turn him or any other scumbag deserter in!
Some claim to have good reason to be AWOL. If that was the case, it would be AWL.
As a matter-of-fact, PM me enough info and I'll take care of it from here.
See This post. It will give you my views.
In Jan of 2003 when we were going into Iraq, The USMC recalled Inactive Reservists up to duty. There were some guys that did not show up. The USMC would notify Law Enforcement, and how they found them was with CC traces. They'd use a bank card, it would show their location, and they would start investigating from there.
There was 1 guy in particular who missed (on purpose) his flight to Kuwait while I was in North Carolina. Within 3 hrs they arrested him. He went back home and was watching TV on his couch when the Troopers knocked on his door.
I think the Corps deals with Buttheads better than the Army does.
If you are an NCO or an Officer, you are bound to uphold the UCMJ. It is your duty.
I'd like to give this guy some wall-to-wall counseling.
Mike
04-16-2005, 09:52 AM
#54
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Originally posted by Begle1
Yay, you turned somebody in for desertion; does this make you feel better about yourself or what?
Yay, you turned somebody in for desertion; does this make you feel better about yourself or what?
Originally posted by Begle1
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion.
An officer in the armed forces, or maybe a high level enlisted man, would have a reason to turn him in, but anybody else has no right to in my opinion.
Originally posted by converteddzlr
Begle1, so if I interpret your outlook it's something like ... Im' OK, you're OK, and anybody can do anything that they like as long as it doen't impact on your life.
Begle1, so if I interpret your outlook it's something like ... Im' OK, you're OK, and anybody can do anything that they like as long as it doen't impact on your life.
04-16-2005, 11:06 PM
#55
the fact that a member of the miltary is part of a team, how ever small that one person maybe, they are very important. If a section of 7 troops train together for years to become fully operationale, then one guy leaves it takes a while for that 6 soldiers to retrain a new replacement and be able to trust that persson's reactions and way of doing things. Now if that person left by desertion then the moral of those 6 other troops will no doubt plummit, and not only will they have to train and intergrate a new member into their section. they will be wondering where they went wrong in their training and how come they never seen it comming. It is a kick in the nuts for Soldiers, Marines,Sailors and Airmen to see peopel leave thrue desertion, It only means that that person whom you have trusted up to that point, has now taken away that trust that you had mutually to trust each other with your lives and thos eof others. If a person feels the need and obligation to report a deserter then good on them. If you know a deserter and fail to report it, then you yourself have now contributed to the break down of that section of men and women whom had the trust in you as a citizen they protect with their lives to do the moral thing. Yes the deserter will have to face the consequences of what they did. As they would have to face any other descsion they have made in their lives. The one bad descsion was to join the miltary and not support what they were their for fully. To bad for them if they end up breaking rocks. Suck it up. As for any persons out their whom have a bleeding heart out their then maybe you should walk a day in those Memeber of the military that defend your right to say leave the deserters alone. I think i have written enough. I myself am a member of the Canadian Airforce, proud of it.
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