Need HELP/Advise on home/farm electrical issue
01-23-2006, 10:03 AM
#31
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
" there is nothing so good for the inside of a man than the outside of a horse"..... Will Rodgers
It takes less electrical current to kill a horse than it does a human, cow or most birds...... I used to know th figures but cant remember now.
Most tank heaters are designed to run off 30 amp dedicated cicuits. Very few agricultural use circuits are going to be designed with a GFCI installed, its not required by National Code and is not common practise. I learned this the hard way building 3 barns over the last 5 years and luckily having a cousin who is an electrician.
There is a possiblity that even with a GFCI the circuit would have remained enegized with ground fault into the water, a Rubbermaid tank for example will not ground to earth, tripping a GFCI circuit. I learned this the hard way, fortunatly we didnt loose a horse, but I got a good shock while trying to figure out why they hadnt been drinking, and there was a GFCI breaker on teh circuit.
How the circuit was grounded would depend on how it was installed. Is it in flexible metal conduit or PVC? or is it direct bury cable?
A metal conduit curcuit should have been grounded at the service box, as well as having a "ground wire" as part of the wiring.
PVC and direct bury cable would have been grounded through the "third wire" only. How isolated from the Conduit/outlet housing was the tank?
Theoreticaly, if you had a short to ground in a metal conduit circuit, that would energize the conduit. A metal tank in contact with the conduit would be energized through it. Whether the breaker tripped or not could be dependant on the amount of amerage draw through the fault. ( i.e. a intermitant fault drawing surges of 10 amps will not trip a 15 amp breaker)
How well sealed was the outlet box? dust, moiusture, insects and small rodents could all short out teh circuit at the box, although this should trip the breaker.
None of these scenerios are very likely at all, but my point is there are a lot of variables involved here that could affect how this happpened.
I would get a qualified electrician to inspect the system, prefferably NOT the one who installed it or working for teh pipeline commpany.
In the future, install heaters on dedicated circuits on a breaker or GFCI designed for no higher than the amp rating of the heater.
I run three heaters each on a dedicated cicuit. My large heaters are rated for 30 amps, so are on 30 amp breakers, while the general outlet circuit for teh barn is 40 amps.
Each outlet is a weather-proof box, and the cables are in metal conduit where exposed, adn in flex conduit where buried. The conduit is grounded to the service box, which has a seperate ground rod for it.
Your fence charger shouldnt be an issue, they work on voltage, not amperage, and if installed properly, should blow a fuse beore allowing a high enough charge to the fence to injure an animal.
CD Reynolds
RedHawk Stables Foundation Quarter Horses
Carbondale KS.
AQHA-KFQHRA-FQRA
It takes less electrical current to kill a horse than it does a human, cow or most birds...... I used to know th figures but cant remember now.
Most tank heaters are designed to run off 30 amp dedicated cicuits. Very few agricultural use circuits are going to be designed with a GFCI installed, its not required by National Code and is not common practise. I learned this the hard way building 3 barns over the last 5 years and luckily having a cousin who is an electrician.
There is a possiblity that even with a GFCI the circuit would have remained enegized with ground fault into the water, a Rubbermaid tank for example will not ground to earth, tripping a GFCI circuit. I learned this the hard way, fortunatly we didnt loose a horse, but I got a good shock while trying to figure out why they hadnt been drinking, and there was a GFCI breaker on teh circuit.
How the circuit was grounded would depend on how it was installed. Is it in flexible metal conduit or PVC? or is it direct bury cable?
A metal conduit curcuit should have been grounded at the service box, as well as having a "ground wire" as part of the wiring.
PVC and direct bury cable would have been grounded through the "third wire" only. How isolated from the Conduit/outlet housing was the tank?
Theoreticaly, if you had a short to ground in a metal conduit circuit, that would energize the conduit. A metal tank in contact with the conduit would be energized through it. Whether the breaker tripped or not could be dependant on the amount of amerage draw through the fault. ( i.e. a intermitant fault drawing surges of 10 amps will not trip a 15 amp breaker)
How well sealed was the outlet box? dust, moiusture, insects and small rodents could all short out teh circuit at the box, although this should trip the breaker.
None of these scenerios are very likely at all, but my point is there are a lot of variables involved here that could affect how this happpened.
I would get a qualified electrician to inspect the system, prefferably NOT the one who installed it or working for teh pipeline commpany.
In the future, install heaters on dedicated circuits on a breaker or GFCI designed for no higher than the amp rating of the heater.
I run three heaters each on a dedicated cicuit. My large heaters are rated for 30 amps, so are on 30 amp breakers, while the general outlet circuit for teh barn is 40 amps.
Each outlet is a weather-proof box, and the cables are in metal conduit where exposed, adn in flex conduit where buried. The conduit is grounded to the service box, which has a seperate ground rod for it.
Your fence charger shouldnt be an issue, they work on voltage, not amperage, and if installed properly, should blow a fuse beore allowing a high enough charge to the fence to injure an animal.
CD Reynolds
RedHawk Stables Foundation Quarter Horses
Carbondale KS.
AQHA-KFQHRA-FQRA
01-23-2006, 11:23 AM
#32
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If I am not mistaken, it is against NEC to to run pressurized water piping and power in same trench, just as you are not supposed to run low voltage and high voltage in same trench. I know it gets done all the time but they should be in separate channels. Direct bury cable is supposed to be water impervious so there should be no chance of leakage current through the jacketing but there is always a chance if it gets soaked and stays soaked from being in the same vicinity as a leaking pressurized water line. All it takes is one good nick of the cable during installation to cause a problem. That is where the GFCI breaker has merits, although they are spendy.
I would get the electrical inspector supervisor out there to look over the installation. Take plenty of pictures of the unchewed cord, receptacles, and breaker panel. Also make sure the inspector knows you are taking pictures so he is forced not to "look the other way" for some reason (internal department politics being what they are).
Sorry for your loss. A good horse is hard to give up.
I would get the electrical inspector supervisor out there to look over the installation. Take plenty of pictures of the unchewed cord, receptacles, and breaker panel. Also make sure the inspector knows you are taking pictures so he is forced not to "look the other way" for some reason (internal department politics being what they are).
Sorry for your loss. A good horse is hard to give up.
01-23-2006, 11:30 AM
#33
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Chrisreyn,
I am sure glad my liability insurance does NOT cover your barn. Let me guess, your 40amp breaker is feeding #12 wire to your recpticles. #12 wire=20amps. Most recpticles are only good for 15 amps. Wher do you need 3600 watts of heat on a tank to require a 30 amp breaker?
In my world each heater would be on a seperate breaker, as small as possible, and a GFCI. If there was a problem it would be kept to a single heater. Limit the exposure.
Yes a rubber tank could hold a tankfull of water that is energized even being fed from a GFCI, but when the first path to ground was made(horse or human) the GFCI would only allow 5ma of current to flow. You would feel it but be alive to tell about it.
I am sure glad my liability insurance does NOT cover your barn. Let me guess, your 40amp breaker is feeding #12 wire to your recpticles. #12 wire=20amps. Most recpticles are only good for 15 amps. Wher do you need 3600 watts of heat on a tank to require a 30 amp breaker?
In my world each heater would be on a seperate breaker, as small as possible, and a GFCI. If there was a problem it would be kept to a single heater. Limit the exposure.
Yes a rubber tank could hold a tankfull of water that is energized even being fed from a GFCI, but when the first path to ground was made(horse or human) the GFCI would only allow 5ma of current to flow. You would feel it but be alive to tell about it.
01-23-2006, 12:18 PM
#34
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
10 gauge three strand wire from box to outlet, the recepticals are industrial grade, designed for 60 amp service in machine chops ect.
I run a 40 amp circuit because I may have two or three power tools, running on the circuit at the same time.
A X-ray machine or sonigram runs at 35 amps. When my vet brings the x-ray out and has it and other equipment running , I need the circuit to carry the load and dont have enough physical space to run additional lines.
Like I said, I have a electrician who helped me design and install it.
I am very carefull with the horses, I have to be since I make a good part of my income off other peoples animals.
I cant afford to be paying someone for a horse that is injured on my place.
[QOUTE=redramnc]If I am not mistaken, it is against NEC to to run pressurized water piping and power in same trench[QOUTE/]
No, you can not have them in conjuncture, that is at teh same depth or in teh same housing.
I.E. the water line may be burried at 40 inches and the electric at 24 inches, but no t both at 40 ...
I run a 40 amp circuit because I may have two or three power tools, running on the circuit at the same time.
A X-ray machine or sonigram runs at 35 amps. When my vet brings the x-ray out and has it and other equipment running , I need the circuit to carry the load and dont have enough physical space to run additional lines.
Like I said, I have a electrician who helped me design and install it.
I am very carefull with the horses, I have to be since I make a good part of my income off other peoples animals.
I cant afford to be paying someone for a horse that is injured on my place.
[QOUTE=redramnc]If I am not mistaken, it is against NEC to to run pressurized water piping and power in same trench[QOUTE/]
No, you can not have them in conjuncture, that is at teh same depth or in teh same housing.
I.E. the water line may be burried at 40 inches and the electric at 24 inches, but no t both at 40 ...
01-23-2006, 12:43 PM
#35
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Originally Posted by electrifried
Chrisreyn,
Yes a rubber tank could hold a tankfull of water that is energized even being fed from a GFCI, but when the first path to ground was made(horse or human) the GFCI would only allow 5ma of current to flow. You would feel it but be alive to tell about it.
Yes a rubber tank could hold a tankfull of water that is energized even being fed from a GFCI, but when the first path to ground was made(horse or human) the GFCI would only allow 5ma of current to flow. You would feel it but be alive to tell about it.
, I shut the breaker off before I touched it again, so I dont know if the GFCI outlet tripped when I stuck my hand in it, I dont remember if I had to reset the GFCI or not.
01-23-2006, 12:57 PM
#37
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
OK, again, I am not an electrician, thats why i got one to help me, so one of us would know what he was doing....
you do have me worried tho... am I overkilled on teh heater circuits? The heaters are rated at 1500 watts and state a peak load of 30 amps.....
you do have me worried tho... am I overkilled on teh heater circuits? The heaters are rated at 1500 watts and state a peak load of 30 amps.....
01-23-2006, 01:33 PM
#38
Administrator
Originally Posted by electrifried
Ok 10ga wire = 30 amps. The absolute best recpticle that you can plug a standard male plug into is rated at 20 amps.
chaikwa.
01-23-2006, 02:56 PM
#39
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Met with Pipeline employee whom said was given the order to be in charge.Said he had pulled work order from the SUB whom did the work.Much closer then I could have imagine.The man I rent the pasture from suggested back when to use a ELECT COMPANY his GROWN son works FOR out of Athens.His SON did the work!!! Pipeline guy is pxxx.The wiring was checked today with a "wind up tester"darn don't remember the name of tool.Shows elect line also has a PROBLEM.The elect.guy from the other night said that all the rain might have triggered a exsiting old problem when line installed.Their digging whole deal up to look and replace. Also talked to the tank deicer folks whom had already stated that there MIGHT also be a wire problem,voltage to ground which their unit CAN BE OK and still run current and NOT trip a GFCI and kill.Told me how to test unit and gave me a fedx number to ship it to them.Said they would also HIRE a independent to inspect line etc.and report back.Pipeline Company asked worth of horse.How do you put value on a coming 21 year old you had 18 years???? I said 3k for him and bull I've gone through.They said SURE.
01-23-2006, 03:06 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by Hounddog
...The wiring was checked today with a "wind up tester"darn don't remember the name of tool.
Measures isolation and breakdown resistance.
~Rob
01-23-2006, 03:17 PM
#42
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So far no hard axxx with a chip.Kinda shocked.Just wish it hadn't happened.Broke my heart when my wife shriek He's dead and took off running.All he did was get a drink of water.
01-23-2006, 04:20 PM
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Well, my dogs and I are going to say prayers for your horse tonight. We feel mighty bad about it. 
I think you'll see him again at the bridge.
Keep your chin up, we're thinking about you and your family.
Tom and the dogs, all six of 'em.
I think you'll see him again at the bridge.
Keep your chin up, we're thinking about you and your family.
Tom and the dogs, all six of 'em.
01-23-2006, 07:01 PM
#45
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Thinking "out of the box"
To put a rubbermaid type stock tank on the same playing field as a steel one, how about a ground rod driven near the tank attached to another rod laying at the bottom of the tank with a good sized piece of ground wire. That should bleed any leakage that a GFCI would not trip at and speed up the trip process if the leakage is great enough to trip. By code this rod should be bonded to the grounding source at the incomming service.
Any thoughts?
To put a rubbermaid type stock tank on the same playing field as a steel one, how about a ground rod driven near the tank attached to another rod laying at the bottom of the tank with a good sized piece of ground wire. That should bleed any leakage that a GFCI would not trip at and speed up the trip process if the leakage is great enough to trip. By code this rod should be bonded to the grounding source at the incomming service.
Any thoughts?