ian515

I will add to my above post as well. I agree, bikers who get in the way and ride like idiots, and dont actually obey the rules of the road, but expect to be treated like a vehicle, really bug me. I am with you on that.

a new trend I have been noticing (and this is slightly off topic) is JOGGERS running in the ROAD next to a perfectly good sidewalk. some say its so they are more visible, but if they are on the sidewalk??!! cmon.

03RAMBUNCTIOUS

More visible??, anytime you are anywhere near a road, you have to be defensive, keep your eyes open no one is watching for you, WATCH for them.

so get on teh sidewalk and look both ways when going thru the crosswalk, i think i learned this one in first grade...

ian515

yeah, I think I had that class as well....

jthorpe

You're nuts if you think I or anyone else should go ahead and take a head on with another vehicle vs. getting out of the way. That's not going to happen, ever. If you think Cops should just sacrifice themselves for you; once again, you're nuts. I was waiting for this to turn into a blame the cop thread. My prediction was right. It ALWAYS turns into that, even when the argument is ridiculously stupid.

What on earth happened to common sense with the human race anyways?

ian515

i think it went that way, but is coming back....as stated in many posts DEFENDING the cops. and as I stated in a previous post, I wish I had posted the cropped pic so they cop wasnt in it.

jthorpe

Ian, I understand. I was responding to the original post but yes, I do appreciate the others having some common sense and bringing the discussion back to reality. Thank you for that

ian515

just because I wanted you to know I am on the cops side, I went out and found the aftermath pics

at least this shows that the same cop who was in the pic got the bad guy in cuffs.




edit--

this pic doesnt actually PROVE its the same cop, the other one does. but there are bodies layin around, and I am assuming that one of them is the guy who got killed. so I dont feel like showin that one.

CamperAndy

Tell me LEO's do not do the right thing all over the world every single day. From PIT moves, road blocks (with their cars), walking out into the street to lay down spike strips to just plain old traffic stops. A head on was not needed to save the life of the biker but a quarter hit would have made a world of difference. It is not the cops fault for the incident itself but his actions appeared to have made it worse for the riders he was escorting.

Why is this not be a valid opinion or is "every man for himself" the only rule to follow. Too bad you can not ask the latest congressional medal of honor recipient what he thinks of bailing out. He made the choice to save the guys in his vehicle by laying on a grenade. The cop would have been a hero if he had at least tried to clip the drunk, it could have made the difference in the life of the biker.

Last but not least if serve and protect is not the moto most LEO's follow, then what is??

jthorpe

Great post from a guy who has the advantage of 20/20 hindsight... from a single picture no less!

Well let me give you a clue....

First of all PIT moves are a lot different than what we're talking about here, and usually safe for the officer if he does it right. If you don't do it right, it's still unlikely that an officer would get hurt unless he did something really stupid. Secondly, road blocks with cars at least where I work is prohibited unless approved by higher authority and only as a last resort because of the danger involved. Thirdly, anyone who goes out in the middle of the road with stop sticks doesn't know how to use stop sticks. You don't go out in the middle of the road and drop them, you throw them from the side, and then you can reel them in when the target gets close from a good safe distance.

Yes, there is danger in our job but if you think that I'm going to intentionally put myself in front of a speeding vehicle, you're wrong. When you can tell me that you would have done the same, in that short amount of time, knowing exactly where to put the car and how to crash into him without hurting yourself while at the same time pushing the other car into the perfect position to avoid hitting the bikers, all within a split second then by God I'll do it, too. Until then, you're an armchair quarterback who hasn't a clue.

I'll do what I can to protect and serve. I might even die doing so but I'm not going to die on purpose like you suggest. I'm going to do everything in my power to go home at night.

ian515

ok. I am going to make up a story, so you can rest easy at night knowing the cop did all he could.

we will call the cop "Joe".

joe decided to take on some OT, and be an escort for the bike race. While driving along side the middle of the pack, he got a call from an official, reporting a reckless driver, quite possibly drunk. Knowing the danger this could present to the bikers, joe immediately responded. As joe approached the front of the pack from behind, he noticed a speeding, swirving car coming head on towards the bikers. Joe made a split second decision to swirve AROUND the front of the pack in an attempt to cut in front of them and stop the reckless driver from causing any damage. JUST as he was pulling ahead of the bikers, joe realized he was too late, and wasnt going to make it in time. the drunk driver slammed the bikers, killing one. Joe immediately did what he was trained to do, and apprehended the drunk driver, before more damage could be done.

there. as long as we are making wild assumptions from one picture, that is mine. we have NO IDEA what happened. believe me, I have been searching hi and low for the full story, I still cant find out anything more than a drunk hit some bikers.

ian515

oh, and bringing the medal of honor winner into it makes no sense. yes, he did a great and brave thing. but if all you had heard was a soldier died from wounds sustained by a grenade, I dont think you would assume he jumped on it. we have the advantage of knowing the full story in that case. and an amazing story at that.

CamperAndy

I guess I opened this can of worms and since there were some assumptions made I will use what information is out there to confirm my impressions.

The post crash scene photo shows the car was stopped in the middle of the group of injured bikers. With no indication of brake lights prior to the impact and stopping within a few feet of the initial impact the speed appears to have been limited. Not having seen a high speed car on person impact I can not say what the car would look like but having seen car on deer at speed, they leave a significant level of damage, looking again at post crash damage, their is minimal damage except to the plastic and glass of the car. The initial photo shows a lead bike that was ahead of the crash, fully stopped on the side of the road, indicating he saw the drunk coming and pulled over. All of this to say my arm chair says the crash was relatively slow to develop and the bikers in the crash were screened from the drunk untill the last second by the cop in front (not behind) the group.

Ian your story is good and it would be nice to hope that was the case but I don't think it is.

Sorry if my opinion makes some of you sore but I still feel the cop could have done more, in this instance and from the photo evidence seen so far.

CamperAndy

He was brought into the discussion since he did something Admin indicated would never ever happen, looking death in the face and not blinking. I have no idea if I could do that today as I am almost 50 but when I was in the Navy I went into a burning compartment to pull out a injured shipmate without regard for my life, but I was young and felt I would live forever at the time. I can not use a direct LEO example without research but without a doubt there are many of them.

jthorpe

Andy, have you ever been in a situation where you had three car loads of thugs surround you on a traffic stop? That's 10 or more thugs to just one of you.

Just wondering if you've ever been in a situation like that.

CamperAndy

Admin that is why I mentioned the traffic stop being just as dangerous as some of the other things you can do during a normal day. Your job on a day to day basis puts your life at risk.

Where I have lived for the last 12 year I don't have to deal with thugs, gangs or even too many of your average malcontents. I do travel to Mexico for work (among many countries around the world) and I know first hand the Mexico Federal police have their hand out for on the spot payment of "fines" as often as telling you to go to the police station to pay. The shake down is a live and well in Mexico. This is not to say my position is based on the fact that the cop that dodged the drunk could be one of those pathetic excuses of a LEO that supplement their income with a few personal traffic stops each day but it obviously can't be discounted from my evaluation.

A large portion of my job is failure analysis, like LEO crash scene investigators, they (I) have to decide how things went down with only the remains of the crash (failure). With that photo and the remains of the crash I think they would also indicate it was a relatively low speed incident.

Back to your 3 cars of thugs, the answer is no I have not been in that situation. Does that mean I am not qualified to have an opinion on the topic at hand (which has nothing to do with 3 cars of thugs)? Now to evaluate the response I would have if you were surrounded and made a call and I was a LEO I would put myself in harms way to help save/rescue you just as I hope you would do the same for me. If I were in the cruiser when surrounded, I think I would be testing the push bars on the front of the car. What is the correct answer?