dieselJon

Sorry Hat, I didn't think about it being borderline.

madhat

No problem, it was more of a blanket statement.

RAF

Yes, you must have faith to believe in anything.

Just in case you were wondering. I do believe in God and that the Bible is the Word of God. (KJV)

You brought up a point that is very true in a lot of people that profess to be a true christian. They don't know The Bible.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

If they did believe the Bible is the final authority we wouldn't have so many Christian "Religions". There is alot of adding and subtracting from the Bible and there is a warning in the end of the Bible about this.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Clayten

That is a very enlightening piece, thanks.

RAF

I have questions to the side on evolution. I haven't heard what I believe to be good answers to these.

1. Were did are thoughts on right and wrong come from?

2. If we came from monkeys or apes. We still have monkeys and apes and then there is us. Where is everything in between?

I think it also takes alot of faith to believe that everything we see in this world started by accident. It is the theory of evolution right?

Clayten

Not that I am an expert, but right and wrong I would think came to us by experience which is learned.An animal learns to live in the wild by experience. The animal knows what to eat and what not to eat. That would have to be considered right and wrong.
The part between the apes and us is not something I can tell you. There has been skeletal remains of early humans found. That may be the link. But I am not an expert. Genealogy has shown a link, which is now the new way to look at this whole mystery.
Did everything start by accident? I don't know I would like to know. I am not saying how anything happened, but I have an open mind to all that is presented to me.
I don't think one can say that evolution is caused by accident. Evolution is more likely a mistake/ defect that worked. One could have trust/ faith in a theory if it has scientific proof. Mankind has been getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Just look at all the athletes, their breaking records all the time. Could this be considered evolution?
As it has already been mentioned the big bang is the real question. What was before, and where did it come from? And is it going to happen again? Is there life other than on Earth? We are to small at the tooth to really know.

t-15 firefighter

Okay, I will try to add to this discussion what I believe to be true. In summary, I grew up in a Christian church until I was 18 years old and moved out on my own. I pretty much stopped believing in what the church had to say when I was around 14 and I haven’t really believed in much of anything (except in myself) since then. There has been some very good discussion in this thread and will try to add to it starting with this….

Webster’s definition of faith:

Main Entry:
1faith
Pronunciation:
\ˈfāth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology:
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date:
13th century
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
synonyms see belief
— on faith
: without question <took everything he said on faith>


What I find interesting is this…(1): A firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

I have always maintained that faith is a made up belief system to explain away the unexplainable.


I’m honestly glad that you brought this up. Let me preface this with I’m not saying that this is wrong. It very well may be true (or not ).

You mention Revelations. Revelations was written by John of Patmos. According to the text of Revelation, the author, who gives his name as "John," is living in exile on the Greek island of Patmos. In Revelation, he writes to the seven Christian churches in Asia to relate two apocalyptic visions he has had. What I fail to comprehend is that people will believe in something (a vision from an old man in prison no less) that was written almost 2000 years ago. Now I understand that some think that this is the divine word of god channeled through human form but what would you say if I wrote something akin to the end of the world right now. Would you believe me? Would you believe what I wrote? If not, why not? If I hid my “scriptures” in a cave somewhere do you think in 2000 years they might believe what I wrote? What I’m getting at is essentially the same thing. Some people are eager to believe in something that someone wrote in a cryptic book called the bible just because they believe that it is the inspired work of some supreme being. Now as I said before, it may very well be. I just can’t make myself believe it.

Something else I find interesting is that Jesus wasn’t the only Messiah performing miracles during that age. There were many performing miracles including Apollonius of Tyana. Here is a brief description:

A neo-Pythagorean of Greece who acquired a reputation for his magical powers. He is considered a contemporary of Christ. Francis Barrett claimed him to be "one of the most extraordinary persons that ever appeared in the world." Born at Tyana, in Asia Minor, he was educated at Tarsus, and at the Temple of Aesculapius at Aegae, where at sixteen he became an adherent of Pythagoras whose discipline he ascribed to all of his life. He died during the second century AD. In his desire for knowledge he traveled many Eastern countries and according to legend he performed miracles where ever he went (Not dissimilar from Jesus I might add).

This same person had followers that said he healed the sick, raised the dead, walked through walls, was tried by the Roman courts, crucified, and came back from the dead, etc. etc… But you don’t believe in him. Why? Because it wasn’t as mass-produced as the Jesus story. Simple as that. All it takes is a little digging through historical facts to find the answers.

Now to evolution. I will try to simplify evolution a little bit. Some people (wrongfully so on both sides) have more or less tried to make a religion out of evolution. Evolution is NOT a religion. Evolution is based on scientific observations, facts, and theories. The one nice thing about science is there is always someone there to check your findings. Religion.... not so much.

Darwin’s theory of evolution was put forth before any of the major scientific advances of the 20th century and they still hold true to this day. Darwin observed on the Galapagos Islands changes within the species living on the different islands. He theorized (rightfully so) that species change to adapt to their surroundings. But this went much further. Over time we have come to realize that entire organisms change into different beings. To the people that say “well I have never seen a fish turn into a bird” all I can say is you're right. Evolution can take millennia to complete. Also the people that say that we came from monkeys or apes are just showing their ignorance of evolution. We did not evolve from monkeys or apes. That is just some line usually perpetuated by the church. Think of human evolution (all evolution for that matter) as a tree. Some branches are longer than others. Some branches die out (extinction) while others flourish. The human branch is an accident at best along with most other forms of life on this planet. Though humans (Homosapians) share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees we are distinctly different from them (if you couldn’t tell already). We are our own branch so to speak along with all other living forms of life on this planet. Think of it this way. Neanderthal man was stronger and hardier than the homosapians of today. But Neanderthal man died out. Why? There are fossil records of Neanderthal man so that can’t be disputed. Homosapians were just more adept to their surroundings and Neanderthal man wasn't so they died out (became extinct). That is just a little evidence of evolution in action. Survival of the species so to speak.

So….... what started it all???? I couldn’t tell you. I don’t have the answers (and you know what? You don't either). I’m pretty sure that we didn’t come from Adam and Eve (in fact positively sure). I do believe in the “Big Bang” theory but what started that? By the way the Big Bang theory was theorized in 1927 by a Belgian priest named Georges Lemaître. Lemaitre was the first to propose that the universe began with the explosion of a primeval atom. His proposal came after observing the red shift in distant nebulas by astronomers to a model of the universe based on relativity. Years later, Edwin Hubble found experimental evidence to help justify Lemaître's theory. He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.

Now, as far as thoughts of right and wrong…. Couldn’t tell you. I think it has something to do with being self-aware. I actually think that Clayten summed it up pretty well in his last post. Here is something to think about though. We are not the only species on the planet that is self-aware. There are many others. They have done studies with elephants and placed a “X” on the elephant’s head and had them look into a mirror. The elephant will always try to wipe the “X” off of their own head while looking in the mirror. Animals (which is what we are whether you want to believe it or not) are smarter than we think.

I'll say this in closing.... Smart people have become very good at rationalizing things they came to believe for non-smart reasons….

Take care.

Britt

tbarbee1

I was asked by a friend of mine to give my testimony to be printed in a calender last year here it is

Testimony Cowboy Calender 2007


When Ray aked me to do this I immediately said yes not having any idea how hard it would be to pick just one time or instance when the Lord spared my life or blessed me . The times for me are truly countless not to mention the times he stepped in and out unannounced. I grew up in a Christian home so me getting saved at a young age was no surprise. As soon as I got to college my walk with the Lord was over I was very interested in pleasing my self and found out I was actually quite good at it. Any one who tells you sin is not fun is not being honest with you but the Bible says it is only fun for a season I found out the hard way I lived wildly for several years and ended up in jail . I went to see my folks to tell them what I’d done before they heard it from someone else all my mom could talk about was this nice girl she had met at a roping and that I should meet her too. Knowing good and well that I had a girlfriend at the time and had no plans of leaving her. Well sometimes moms just know best I met the girl and 2 months later we were married this didn’t change my walk with God I was as wild as ever. A few years later we were between ranches and looking for a house and found out the Assembly of God Parsonage was open we talked to the pastor and moved in the next day. I told my wife the day we moved in that if that Preacher ever asked or prodded me to come to church I’d never step foot in the place. We lived there for two months I had seen the preacher several times and never once had he so much as invited us to service . I came home one evening and the Preacher was painting our house . I’d had enough I walked over to where he was and asked what’s the deal I’ve been living here for two months and you’ve never invited us to Church one time . He explained he had wanted to many times and the Holy Spirit just wouldn’t let him it was like being choked and he couldn’t talk , so he took the hint and just kept his mouth shut. I said I’ll see you Sunday. My wife and I gave our lives to God and had been going to church there for about a year and a half when it happened .
FEB 22 2003 the coldest night of the year we were sound asleep .
When a voice came from beside my bed and instantly woke me up I’ll never forget the sound . “ You better get out of bed your house is on fire “ The voice was calm but assertive I jumped up and ran to the fire place where I had laid out my wet gloves to dry, nothing . Something caught my eye, sure enough I looked up and could see fire in the attic through the vent . I woke my wife up and got her outside and started grabbing what I could. It was so cold that night that the snow melting off our roof was freezing on my clothes . The doors of the Volunteer Fire Station were frozen shut when they arrived it was too late . My wife and I watched everything we had go up in flames that cold night . It felt like we had lost everything! Helplessly watching your house and all your things burn is indescribable. What a sinking feeling ! As my wife and I sat there holding hands I began to cry realizing that the only thing that mattered was sitting right beside me. All the stuff in the world is worthless when compared to my best friend and wife. You cant buy the important things in life , things are nice but you cant take them with you . What matters are the relationships and experiences that can’t be bought. The smoke alarms never went off that night. There’s no doubt in my mind whose voice I heard, God saved our lives. Proving once again no matter what you’ve done or where you’ve been God will forgive you and gladly take you back putting your sins as far away from you as the East is from the West. He forgave me and he can forgive you!!


Troy BarBee

Those of you who's wives go to church and are praying for you.
Have any of you guys ever thought that the reason you do so well is the prayers of your family and the faithfullness of your wives and God's blessing on their life and the fact that she is Gods entry way into your home. Rather than your lack of a connection with church religion etc... You are blessed simply because of your wifes faithfullness. This is simply my .02 take it or leave it.

Raspy

Britt,

That is an excellent post. Thank you.

It's too bad that those who rely strictly on faith can simply refuse to be curious about science. Why? It's the old head in the sand thing... If I don't see it, it doesn't exist.

We could all get closer to the incomprehendable truth if we could just look with curiosity instead of a closed mind. But wait......... that might be harder.

Two good examples already mentioned are how the church used to believe the stars orbited the Earth. People could be killed if they looked with curiosity and disagreed. Does anyone really doubt the science that now shows otherwise? Another post mentions Noah's flood and fossils. Do some believe Noah was living with dinosaurs and only that flood produced fossils?

It all boils down, once again, to faith. If you go in believing the old story, you can't be curious. All the unexplainable things can be explained by
saying, "because the bible says so". I'm afraid that's not enough for me.

I certainly don't have the answers, but I am curious and I can check a few things off the list, at least for myself.

That's really all any of us can do. Find the answers that work for each of us.


John

Raspy

Troy,

Thank you for that wonderful story and your insights.

You, my friend, have found the answer.


John

madhat

I do wonder sometimes. Not doubt, mind you, but simple thinking. (about all I'm good for anyway...)

If I had been born in a different part of the country, I would probably believe differently. Or, a different part of the world. What about my parents? If they had belived differently, I probably would too. So what make my religion the right one?

I wonder that sometimes. But, I feel I have what I need.

tbarbee1

Raspy I couldnt agree more a person has to make the decisions that fit him/her best. Even if a person chooses christianity there are so many different interpretations of what is the truth you have to establish your own relation ship with God or who ever one chooses to worship based on your own experiences and study. Instead of basing your religion on this is how my ancestors did it. People used to ride to town in a buckboard wagon but I'll take my truck with the A/C if you know what I mean.

I have pondered all this as well and thought all the things that some of the others have said. I didnt just want to follow in my parents footsteps so I did what ever pleased me. And in the end I felt empty when I didnt include God in my day. After trying to fill the emptiness with all sorts of other things I realized the only thing that could fill the void placed in me from creation was the one who created it Jesus. There is no love like the love of God. There is a post going about the insane behavior of some of the professional athletes they are trying to fill a void in their lives with everything but the right thing some folks live with the thought that if I just had more __________. I'd feel better those guys have enough $$ to buy any thing you could insert in the blank above and yet they still want more they are all searching for fullfillment that can only come from the feeling you get with having a relationship with Jesus Christ. God created people to need him yet he wont impose on you but rather place people in your lives as examples of his love for you. Alot of people get hung up on God as the all powerful enforcer and don't be mistaken he is. But he is also the origin of love it was his idea that Jesus die on the cross for your sins. Jesus didnt wake up one day and just concoct that plan It was Gods plan. I choose to believe that I was created by that same Almighty God and that he knows the exact number of hairs on my head and that no matter what I come up against that it is no surprise to him he has planned blessings for each and everyday I spend on this earth if I will walk in love and strive to be in his will. That to me just seems better than having a MONKEY for an uncle. Any of you reading this that used to have a relationship with God remember that feeling that you only had then and have not experienced since? Its no coincidence you are missing something. I'm not talking about guys whos folks made them go to church but if you had a personal relationship with God and went the other way you know what I'm talking about and if you never had a relationship with God what have you got to lose all you have to do is stop talking to him and go back to whatever it is you are doing now. I may wake up one day to realize I've got it all wrong. But one of the worst things I can think of is to finally meet God and have him say I had so much more for you. If you would have just listened and obeyed.

txfiremedic

Very well said Troy. Thanks. Our God is an AWESOME God!!!

Clayten

Suffering is a human experience that includes desire, loneliness,or having no meaning for life.You can look around the world and see this in every walk, rich or poor.
Siddhartha Gautama ( Buddha) addressed this problem 500 years before the birth of Jesus.His work is still in practice to this day, and becoming more popular as the world unfolds day by day.
How do we not know that he was the chosen one to to do the work of god? If god created people to need him. Would he have not started sooner ? Meditation has been proven to help many in need. It is now a tool used in prisons, to help those that have lost their way. So where do we draw the line, who is right, or who was the chosen one?

t-15 firefighter

Good question and good post.

Britt