jlipskoc

I'm refinishing my basement, I'm doing the wiring etc.
200 amp service box, already has 20 amp cb's.
12/2 wire through-out the house. Newer construction, less that 6yrs.

I've got things layed out good, and split up well. I don't have anything that needs a 20a recept, so its more cost effective to go with 15a recept.

I plan to use 12/2 wire on the receptacles, with 20 amp cb's.

I'm unable to find on the 15a outlets i bought at Lowes whats the feed thru amps is, nothing on the box of 10 i bought. I bought some gfci's for the bathroom, they have a 20a feed thru labled on the box, so I'm assuming since its the same brand name, the 15a are ok.

I found this on the internet, it seems its ok to have duplex 15a outlets on a 20a circuit, as the feed thru rating is 20a.

http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...48&whichpage=3

"UL 498, the Standard for Attachment Plugs and Receptacles, has requirements regarding receptacle feed-through terminals. For receptacles rated 15 or 20 A, 125 or 250 V, the feed-through construction is evaluated using a test current of 20 A and is considered suitable for use in a 20 A branch circuit. For further clarity, we will consider adding this information to our directory guide information."

"If I rember right, a 15 amp receptical is rated for 20a feed thru and 15a pass thru. In other words the yoke is rated for 20a and only 15a is supposed to be used thru the front."

My question is on a 15a receptacle and "feed thru" amps:
Whats the feed thru amps on a typical 15a duplex recept?

Should I just stick with 15a circuit breakers instead of 20?

Also one quick question:
House already has more 20a cb's (when you add them up) than the 200 amp box. I thought you were to add all the cb's up in the box and thats the limit. Whats your opinion on this?

1-2-3

Your going a bit overboard. Get what Lowes sells, install it on a 20 amp breaker and be done with it. Remember to not put more than about 3 outlets on one breaker. Since it's a basement, and there may be a chance of water/moisture, consider GFCI breakers on all plugs. Anyhing beyond that, hire a professional. It will cost more, but you won't have to figure out how to get out of a burning house at 3 am.

JAX

No offense here charlie, but that's WAY overkill. You can easily run up to 10 receptacles off of a single circuit. And either use a GFCI protected circuit breaker, or just wire the first receptacle in the run with a GFCI set up for multiple location protection. This is very easy to do. Remember that garage circuits usually have 5-10 receptacles that are run on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, I don't think you will be using power tools down in your basement, so you will be fine. Also, as far as the total amperage on your service panel is concerned; the amperage on the breaker is not how much amperage that circuit will be drawing at a constant rate. It is the amperage that it will draw before tripping. So if you have a 200 amp service, and 10 20 amp breakers, you are not overloaded because you are not drawing 200 amps at any given time. You are only drawing amps from the elctricity that you are using at any given time. Light bulbs usually draw 2-5 amps for example. A garbage disposal will draw between 12-15, thats why they are on 20 amp circuits so that they don't trip every time you fire it up.
HTH

Bearwhiz

Couldn't have said it better myself. IBEW

spunbearing

I second this. Just for more clarification ( if needed): Install one GFCI outlet at the beginning of the branch. The wires from the breaker panel will go to the line side of the GFCI. The feed will go from the load side of the GFCI to the other outlets. This will protect all outlets on the circuit.

Mexstan

Question re outlets. Is there an official way for the outlets to be installed, ie ground prong on top or on the bottom? What is the theory behing this?

LeftLane

I am a licensed electrician in Montreal IBEW local 568
I don't have any knowledge of the California electrical code but up here in Quebec we have the following rules that have probably been derived from the N.E.C.

1- A 15A convince circuit may not exceed 12 outlets.
In your case, renovating a basement this rule is directly applicable. If you were adding a kitchen or a bathroom it would be a completely different story.
2- Ground fault circuit protection is only necessary if installed in a possibly wet location such as any outdoor application or near a sink.
I don't think your application qualifies but if you really want to just install one GFCI plug to be the first one in the chain and connect any subsequent plugs on the "Load" side of the GFCI and all the regular plugs will receive the same ground fault protection as the first.
Like Jax and Spunbearing said.
3- If you install 20A breakers you are technically obliged by the code to install 20A receptacles and use 12awg.
Having said that you can can buy "T" bar plugs. They look like regular 15A duplex plugs but the line pin is shaped like a T to accommodate either a 20A or a 15A male plug.
In the "real world" there really isn't any increased risk in installing 20A breakers on 15A receptacles provided they are wired with 12awg, but a building inspector may still give you a defect and oblige you to change the 20's to 15's.
4- Pass threw current really shouldn't be a issue here. I don't believe you will ever load the circuit up enough to worry about it. The only time pass threw current becomes a issue is when lazy electricians use the little holes in the back of the plugs instead of making hooks with the wire and tightening the wire with the screws (silver = wite neutral and brass = black line) firmly to the plug. I have had many service calls because of the push in clamps becoming loose and burning back on the wire. I usually join the line and load wires together with a pig tale and a marette, this way the circuit will not be interrupted if you need to change a broken plug and is mandatory on a shared neutral circuit.

But to answer your questions.

A 15A receptacle is ratted at 15A, however you may only load the circuit to 80% of its capacity so in reality it's more like 12A

I would just stick with 15A breakers and 14awg or 12awg with normal plugs, this way you are 100% sure to be code compliant.

Hope I helped.


P.S.
Grounds up or down has been a argument for a long time but the prevailing wisdom is to install grounds up in case something falls on a grounded plug it will hit the ground pin and not the line. I however install mine ground down because I think they look like smiley faces that way.

jlipskoc

Wow, great information, sure appreciate it. Answered everything i was thinking about and confirms what I've been reading, just bought a big book from lowes on electrical wiring, it all makes really good sense now, theres even a section on inspections and what to make sure to do, like having nail guards when screwing in sheet rock, or hammern nails for something (never thought of that before!!) and staple the wire as it goes up a 2x4. minimum recept heights, switches, how to wire ceiling fans, bathroom fans with 14/3, great book well worth the $27. It had everything i needed. Theres nothing fancy electrical draw wise going down in the basement anyways, just two bedrooms, family room, bathroom. I'm just new at this and what it done right.

BUT reading that darn book.....
It pointed out everything wrong with the house now And this is a newer home also, i can't believe some of the things I'm finding tonite, I'm guessing the contractor cheaped out, i wasn't livin here when it was built, i guess there are no codes in this town, or it never was inspected properly, no gfci's near sinks, 2 missing in bathrooms and none in kitchen, none in the laundry or garage, or even my detached shop or outside the shop, on the house there ok, the blue boxes aren't flush with the wall, 15a recepts everywhere on 20a cb's, only thing they did do right is run 12/2 wire everywhere.

I can't find any "Arc Fault Interupters" circuit breakers also. This book says they need to be for the bedroom outlets, what do you think about those type of cb's?

We'll i ended up spending lots of cash tonite ugh, bought 20 ($12.59 a pop) gcfi's to redo the garage, kitchen, bathrooms, laundry, i redid 8 of them tonite, they all went well, have a gfci tester plug in thing too, so far so good, so i'm feeln pretty good from reading this and reading that book that this is the right things to do. Just very time consuming.

I'm wiring the house/downstairs for cat5e to for dsl, its easier now that once the basement walls go up. But I will install gfci's in the basement on one outlet and then branch off, max i have is 4 to 6 on the circuit, some rooms I'm skipping over an outlet, so two outlets on the same wall won't have the same cb. This book says be careful as gfci get trip happy if the load fluxuates alot, What do you think about this?

Gonna do the 15a cb' with 12/2 wire on all outlets for consistency and code, i don't have anything thats 20 amp anyways. But the detached garage, I've gonna redo that all 20's gfci's outlets. I even noticed on the outside outlet, its covered, but not gfci. The house is ok though.

Guess I'm a little paranoid, with a toddler in the house, its part of the deal, I'm afraid one day he'll plug in something hes not supposed to, or leave the tub run and overflow etc. Everything is child proof now, but when hes older, it doesn't take much to get the plastic plugs off the wall.

Leftlane, let me know what you think about the arc fault cb's, and the fluxuation issue accidental tripping with gfci. I have a deep freeze in the garage, would hate for it to trip off while on vacation, ruin everything in there. I see pigtailing would cure that issue, if I have to do that, then thats cool.

Leftlane, one other question also, i can't find anywhere in this book, right now theres atleast 25 - 20a cb's in the service panel, well its rated 200 amps, 25x20=500 amps, not as if it would ever happen, but wouldn't the main 200a cb blow first? I've got 13 empty slots left, according to my charts and wattages, i need 10 of them to finish the basement. We might do heating matts in the bathroom, so that might take up 1 to.

Right now theres no way $ wise I've budgeted to replace all most 20cb's with 15, and if i need a subpanel too. I might pm you if i have more ?'s...

ps. tomorrow i need to make a map of the entire house, every outlet and light, and give it a cb #, tonite, what a heck of a time to find the right cb, the things wrote on the lid where so blah, it didn't have much meaning for me.

Thanks!
John

LeftLane

Wow that's a lot of gfci's. You can't do any harm but installing more than you need but you only really need them outside in the bathroom, or any other place water and electricity could become a issue.
Ark faults are relatively new so they probably weren't in force when your house was built. They were invented to prevent fires from arching wires cause because of poor insulation i.e.. frayed lamp cords defective plug spliters etc.
My advice would be to check the cords on all your plug in devices and keep sure their ok and keep sure beds, bureaus, desks etc. aren't crushing up against any plugs and don't get overly concerned with the Arc fault issue.
I wouldn't install a gfci for a freezer. Freezers and fridges must be on their own dedicated 15A circuit. I realize that the "dedicated" circuit may not be possible in a garage but I don't see the need for a gfci in a enclosed garage.
I must admit I don't have any kids but most of my friends do, and those push in plastic covers seem to be effective ant keeping small fingers out of plugs.
Gfci used to have tripping problems but the new ones with the lighting bolt threw the padlock symbol were created to cure these problems and they are the only type available for sale today.

Don't worry about the total of your breakers surpassing your main. The main protects the 200A rated 3/0 wire in your service entrance then the 15, 20, 30, and 40A breakers protect the smaller gauge wires threw ought the house. Look at it this way your main panel is rated to
200A and probably has a min of 32 spaces so if you were to assume that only 15A breakers were to be installed (which never happens 40Afor stove, 30Afor dryer etc..) the calculation would look like this 32 * 15 = 480A! Depending on the brand for your panel you can get twin breakers. Which is two individual breakers molded into one breaker case that takes up one slot in the panel, siemens and square D have these so you shouldn't need to add a sub panel.

spitfire9137

Arc faults as of 2005 NEC are required on any bedroom circut, and alot of people for see them being required in more house circuts when the 2008 NEC comes out. Not only do they protect the stuff you have plugged into the outlet as Leftlane has stated they protect the wires in the wall, so if you were to sya put a screw through the wire and it arced it would trip the breaker.

I hope you didn't put more than one GFI outlet on the same circut. Only the first outlet in the circut will need the GFI, and if you ever have the place inspected, or are going to sell you will have to remove the extra GFIs. Sometimes when more than one GFI is on the circut they will trip for no reason, this can get real annoying. Also make sure the circuts you put the GFI outlets in arnt on a GFI breaker, you can tell this by looking at the breaker and it will have usually a yellow button on it that says "Test". If they circut is protected by a GFI breaker then you dont need any GFI outlets on the circut.

www.selfhelpfourms.com is a great place to ask questions on electrical, plumbing, and building codes/problems.

spunbearing

Leftlane brought up a good point. If you plan on plugging a freezer or refrigerator into an outlet in the basement make sure that it is NOT on the GFCI. Compressor motors need alot of amps to get started and that momentary drain takes the circuit off balance enough to trip the GFCI because it thinks that there is a ground fault.

jlipskoc

Leftlane, thanks again, very helpful Do both you have a $ tab running on me so far I can see why you guys need to know your stuff. I think I just stick with computers and networks for my lifetime career lol. I did take alot of Electrical Engineering courses while in school (BS in Comp Eng/Science) but alot has changed since then, this electrical is more fun as a hobby, sure beats the heck out of "Circuit Theory 205" class

Anyways, cool, I'll keep the freezer off gfci, its in the garage, but it is 3 feet above, 6 inches over the hose faucet (yeah, another problably code violation). All the other garage outlets were single ended (only one set of wires in the box), there were no branches to another outlet, but they all run on the same cb, not sure how they pulled that one, but i imagine there up in the ceiling pigtailed somewhere. 5 of the 6 were singled ended recept. the last one was the freezer, it had another set of wires leading elsewhere. I waited to ask you guys about the tripping thing before i replaced it. Glad i asked!

In the kitchen, 2 of the 4 had another outlet off it. so i replaced the 2 with gfci next to sink. each one went to a single ended branch outlet using continuity testing to see where the wires went. The bathrooms, theres a plain outlet next to the toilet and one up to the right of the sink is gfci. the plain feeds the gfci.... don't ask, it doesn't make sense personally. i replaced the plain with gfci and called it quits, so now each bathroom has 2 gfci's.

Spitfire, i currently have no afci, or gfci breakers. I will plan to do it as you described, I can see that would get annoying if you had several on the same circuit. I will need to see the cost of the afci breakers before making a decision on those, but if there code come 2008, might be a good idea. I understand gfci's cb are $25 each.

Leftlane, thanks for the info on surpassing the main cb, makes sense.
I saw those slim line 2 breaker in 1 thing, thats great, I think i'll use them to save space. I have a square d box currently.

spunbearing

I don't know about where you live but where I live Square D GFCI breakers are around $60 each. If you had Zinnsco it would be much higher.

jlipskoc

Holy Smokes!!! I'll just stick with gfci recepts
Didn't know they were that much, I didn't have time to find them at Lowes.

I guess AFCI cb are the same amount?

spunbearing

I haven't had to buy one yet but I would imagine that they would be more. I priced an AFCI tester at a trade show last year and it was $300 just for the tester.