A couple Dodge vs Ford questions.
09-24-2007, 09:25 AM
#16
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Sorry guys I'm a Cummins nut. After my 6.0 powerjoke problems I converted to the 100,000 mile truck with a million mile engine.
09-24-2007, 10:23 AM
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That thing was the last straw for me and Ford. And it wasn't just the engine that was junk, new tranny and new rear end gears just start the list. They supposedly fixed the problems when they came out with the 7.3.
John
09-24-2007, 12:12 PM
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Have owned both 7.3/6.0 Ford PSD's. 6.0 was a rocket when running correctly. Unfortunately I had a late 03 build 2004, spent alot of time in the shop...never left me stranded though. 02 7.3 followed, not as quick, decent MPG and also never left me stranded. Truck in sig is first CTD. 4400 miles so far. My personal feeling is much of bad feelings associated with Dodge have nothing to do with the current CTD's, I'm a blue oval guy at heart but could not sign the paperwork on another unproven (6.4) diesel. I went with what I thought was the best offering, 07 5.9. In my opinion if you put all brand loyalty aside the 07 5.9 was the last of the proven diesels on the market.
09-24-2007, 03:56 PM
#19
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6.9? Hardly. Mine cost me $5000. to keep it going for 100,000 miles including two cylinder heads, a new injection pump and two water pumps. It had nothing to do with oil. It was in a van and almost impossible to work on. Two of my buddies got them two. One blew up right away because someone was just unloading it before it blew and the other one came with a "new" engine. It had already been blown up.
That thing was the last straw for me and Ford. And it wasn't just the engine that was junk, new tranny and new rear end gears just start the list. They supposedly fixed the problems when they came out with the 7.3.
John
That thing was the last straw for me and Ford. And it wasn't just the engine that was junk, new tranny and new rear end gears just start the list. They supposedly fixed the problems when they came out with the 7.3.
John
Problums were created when the 7.3 came out. Cavitation being a big one. The 7.3 is a bored out 6.9L
09-24-2007, 05:42 PM
#20
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My 6.9 diesel is in a 1985 F-250 with 340,000 miles on it when the speedometer broke back in 1997 (still havent fixed it) I had 2 waterpumps 1 intake gasket (got overheated) and the injection pump was rebuilt by me when I was in school. Still has original injectors. Replaced a few glow plugs along the way and now is either injected.
Problums were created when the 7.3 came out. Cavitation being a big one. The 7.3 is a bored out 6.9L
Problums were created when the 7.3 came out. Cavitation being a big one. The 7.3 is a bored out 6.9L
The only gripes I had with my old 500,000-mile plus 6.9 were it wilted down to nothing on a grade, backing traffic way up behind me; and, it drank fuel when loaded, a steady ten MPG.
I never turned a screw on the engine, same water pump, same starter, only replaced the entire glow-plug system many years ago; it was still running strong when I swapped engines.
With the Cummins, I dramatically increased my power, and doubled my mileage.
But, I can't knock the old 6.9s; now, the cylinder eating 7.3 is an entirely different story.
If I were pushed to the decision, I would take a half-worn-out 6.9, over a new 7.3, anyday.
09-24-2007, 06:14 PM
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How can Dodge "steal" the styling from Ford when they had it first? 1994 was the first year of that "big rig" Dodge style. Even a HD Ford in 1997 didn't have it-- that would make Ford the "thief.
I've given up on educating Ford owners. If you think about it, they don't want an education, because if they DID-- well, they wouldn't be Ford owners, now would they?
So when's this CAT engine going in the Fords that all the Ford guys talk about?
LMBO
09-25-2007, 06:27 PM
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Tell the Ford guy to read this..........................
Well I'm stuck up in Barrow Alaska looking after a canadian plane doing a whale counting contract for shell. I've been here for 10 days and the plane has flown a grand total of 3 times. As you can imagine I am bored out of my skull. Just for FUN and giggles I went to my trusty GOOGLE page and typed in this stoooopid question which any sane and halfWITTED informed diesel lover such as I know the answer to. OF COURSE THEY DO!! , naa just playing with your minds.
This came to mind because my nefew(18 yrs old) is working as an auto apprentice at a locall chevy dealer at home. He gets a lot of ribbing being he is a Mopar fan and drives one of those hopped up Neons with the FART pipe and such. Well he comes home about 2 weeks ago and informs me that Cummins is owned by ford, at least thats what some fool at work told him. well I told him to go check it out on the internet and prove the guy wrong.
Well now that I have all the free time on my hands I checked out what the net had to say. I gotta tell ya that I have never laughed so hard in all my life.I found everything from , ford owns cummins outright to ford dosen't own it but just because they don't want to,ford makes the cummins engine for cummins, ford just lets dodge use it for now,and my all time favorite"for 22k you can order a cummins in a ford f350(from ford) now, my dads friend did it and just got his new truck"LMAO"(this post was dated 2005). In most posts there is someone of sound mind that finally posts the link to cummins website FAQs.
So all this leads to, if you are bored and need a good laugh just type"does ford own cummins" in google. You won't be disapointed.
I was going to post some links to the stuff I found, but finding it was half the fun.
One real intresting thing I did find on one posting was a synopsis one guy did on the global ownership of the diesel engine manufactures. I thought some of you may be intrested to read it. If you believe any of it.......Cummins owns a piece of whats under the hood of ferd & chev........
Aint life funny?
Any way I posted the link of where I found that piece at the bottom.
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
03-01-2007, 09:53 PM
heavyiron heavyiron is offline
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It may take awhile to find, but one member awhile ago posted an excellent, very thouroughly researched article about Cummin's and it's evolution.
I hope I can find it because after reading it you will be amazed.
Ford dreams it could own part of Cummin's. The reality seem's to be that Cummin's could probably buy out whoever they so desired !!
Ok, here it is, many thanks to the original poster. Now everyone take note.
Originally Posted by BFR250SD
It's not who owns Cummins, but who does Cummins own?
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
(Cool With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44"
Reply With Quote
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/58...n-cummins.html
This came to mind because my nefew(18 yrs old) is working as an auto apprentice at a locall chevy dealer at home. He gets a lot of ribbing being he is a Mopar fan and drives one of those hopped up Neons with the FART pipe and such. Well he comes home about 2 weeks ago and informs me that Cummins is owned by ford, at least thats what some fool at work told him. well I told him to go check it out on the internet and prove the guy wrong.
Well now that I have all the free time on my hands I checked out what the net had to say. I gotta tell ya that I have never laughed so hard in all my life.I found everything from , ford owns cummins outright to ford dosen't own it but just because they don't want to,ford makes the cummins engine for cummins, ford just lets dodge use it for now,and my all time favorite"for 22k you can order a cummins in a ford f350(from ford) now, my dads friend did it and just got his new truck"LMAO"(this post was dated 2005). In most posts there is someone of sound mind that finally posts the link to cummins website FAQs.
So all this leads to, if you are bored and need a good laugh just type"does ford own cummins" in google. You won't be disapointed.
I was going to post some links to the stuff I found, but finding it was half the fun.
One real intresting thing I did find on one posting was a synopsis one guy did on the global ownership of the diesel engine manufactures. I thought some of you may be intrested to read it. If you believe any of it.......Cummins owns a piece of whats under the hood of ferd & chev........
Aint life funny?
Any way I posted the link of where I found that piece at the bottom.
Let me know what you think.
Cheers
03-01-2007, 09:53 PM
heavyiron heavyiron is offline
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 182 heavyiron is starting off with a positive reputation.
It may take awhile to find, but one member awhile ago posted an excellent, very thouroughly researched article about Cummin's and it's evolution.
I hope I can find it because after reading it you will be amazed.
Ford dreams it could own part of Cummin's. The reality seem's to be that Cummin's could probably buy out whoever they so desired !!
Ok, here it is, many thanks to the original poster. Now everyone take note.
Originally Posted by BFR250SD
It's not who owns Cummins, but who does Cummins own?
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
(Cool With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44"
Reply With Quote
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/58...n-cummins.html
09-26-2007, 10:47 AM
#27
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Dodge man all the way, I have a 1969 to prove it.
I spoke with a dodge engineer a few months back who was telling how great the next gen is going to be.
"Much more car-like" his words not mine. Sounded like a big El Camino with a mini-van interior.
I hope Cerebus puts the kabosh on that one.
If Dodge would ditch the foo-foo and build trucks they will be #1
I spoke with a dodge engineer a few months back who was telling how great the next gen is going to be.
"Much more car-like" his words not mine. Sounded like a big El Camino with a mini-van interior.
I hope Cerebus puts the kabosh on that one.
If Dodge would ditch the foo-foo and build trucks they will be #1
09-26-2007, 12:34 PM
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Well, I am a Ford AND a Dodge guy. Yes, its possible to be both, just like I can root for TCU and Ohio State. If they ever played each other, I'd have to go who I know would win, Ohio State. Same thing with Ford and Dodge, I love 'em both, but I know the pluses and minus of each. I will probably end up getting a Ford PSD, just because the interior is comfortable for what I need right now. Do I want a a Cummins still? Oh yes. Would I buy one over the PSD? Oh yes, but the problem is finding a -200k 97 12v, 4x4 5spd. Its difficult. I don't have VP44 problems, and the 98.5-02 interior is uncomfortable . Is comfort all I seek? No, but at this point its something I need.
Its possible to be a Ford PSD and a Dodge Cummins guy. However, if you are a solid one or the other, there is not convincing you to switch sides. At least most of the time.
Its possible to be a Ford PSD and a Dodge Cummins guy. However, if you are a solid one or the other, there is not convincing you to switch sides. At least most of the time.
09-26-2007, 02:24 PM
#29
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Not a chance. The manufacturers are tripping over themselves to offer even more geegaws and trinkets.
Are they responding to the market or creating the market? Hard to say, but people are paying for that crap.
If people didn't want it, we'd all be driving Ford in plain fleet white.
JMO
Are they responding to the market or creating the market? Hard to say, but people are paying for that crap.
If people didn't want it, we'd all be driving Ford in plain fleet white.
JMO
09-26-2007, 10:00 PM
#30
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If Dodge would ditch the foo-foo and build trucks they will be #1[/QUOTE]
They did that in the past and were not very succesful. They are called 1st gens, or they were referred to by year before that, like 1968, etc. Those are utilitarian workhorses and not that popular. Remember, people bought the 1st gens because of the Cummins and just put up with the housing even though they are very tough and simple, at least in the drivetrain department. The bodies are another story. I loved my 1st gen but would never trade my 3rd gen for one.
Even today people complain about Dodge interiors and refer to Fords as having great interiors. They want foo foo. A good example of a simple reliable truck was the International pickup. Now defunct.
You have to have toughness, styling, comfort, power and some foo foo to be sucessful.
John
They did that in the past and were not very succesful. They are called 1st gens, or they were referred to by year before that, like 1968, etc. Those are utilitarian workhorses and not that popular. Remember, people bought the 1st gens because of the Cummins and just put up with the housing even though they are very tough and simple, at least in the drivetrain department. The bodies are another story. I loved my 1st gen but would never trade my 3rd gen for one.
Even today people complain about Dodge interiors and refer to Fords as having great interiors. They want foo foo. A good example of a simple reliable truck was the International pickup. Now defunct.
You have to have toughness, styling, comfort, power and some foo foo to be sucessful.
John