Buddie's RANT on R12 / R134 & NASA
08-18-2010, 07:20 AM
#1
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Buddie's RANT on R12 / R134 & NASA
one of my buddies is entirely fed up with Freon, it seems:
So many advances have been made in converting r12 systems to r134a that it's not worth it at all. And all that tree hugger ..... was just the govt finding another way to tax people. DuPont held the patent on r12 until it expired in 95.
they didn't want to keep producing it because it was too cost prohibitive.
R134a had been around for over a decade and much cheaper to produce which gave them a better profit margin. They started the whole enviroscare on r12 and rode a high profit wagon for at least another 3 years, as they horded millions of lbs of r12 prior to the release of r134a.
Did you know that NASA uses more r12 (released into the atmosphere intentionally) with each shuttle launch, than all the cars on the road combined in one calender year. Keeps the shuttle from melting during launch.
The federal govt made a fortune in taxes based on sales/excise tax.
The companies that manufactured the recovery/recycle machines that became mandatory in 1995 were all owned by DuPont.
Those same companies designed and marketed a stop leak chemical designed to keep automobiles from leaking the refrigerant. A nasty little side note was that it also clogged the recovery/recycle machines that were costing the consumer over 5k to purchase.
So Robinair (owned by DuPont) was selling a ton of replacement parts so that the shops could conform to the regulation. I prayed for the that day the ozone cops would come in my shop to inspect my compliance. I was gonna handcuff them to my machine, load them up on my open deck trailer and parade them down main street. But after 10 years of compliance they never showed up.
I took my 5 thousand dollar machine to the rifle range and shot it over 200 times, releasing that nasty little chemical into the atmosphere. Of course that was the day they were launching the shuttle, so at least I was just going along with what our federal govt was doing.
Oh yeah, later on after most the r12 was dried up and the patent was fixing to expire on r134a, DuPont again announced that it too was not good for the atmosphere.
Yet they didn't have a viable backup plan and chemists that knew about the last fiasco disproved the claim of environmental impact. DuPont wisely left it alone.
So many advances have been made in converting r12 systems to r134a that it's not worth it at all. And all that tree hugger ..... was just the govt finding another way to tax people. DuPont held the patent on r12 until it expired in 95.
they didn't want to keep producing it because it was too cost prohibitive.
R134a had been around for over a decade and much cheaper to produce which gave them a better profit margin. They started the whole enviroscare on r12 and rode a high profit wagon for at least another 3 years, as they horded millions of lbs of r12 prior to the release of r134a.
Did you know that NASA uses more r12 (released into the atmosphere intentionally) with each shuttle launch, than all the cars on the road combined in one calender year. Keeps the shuttle from melting during launch.
The federal govt made a fortune in taxes based on sales/excise tax.
The companies that manufactured the recovery/recycle machines that became mandatory in 1995 were all owned by DuPont.
Those same companies designed and marketed a stop leak chemical designed to keep automobiles from leaking the refrigerant. A nasty little side note was that it also clogged the recovery/recycle machines that were costing the consumer over 5k to purchase.
So Robinair (owned by DuPont) was selling a ton of replacement parts so that the shops could conform to the regulation. I prayed for the that day the ozone cops would come in my shop to inspect my compliance. I was gonna handcuff them to my machine, load them up on my open deck trailer and parade them down main street. But after 10 years of compliance they never showed up.
I took my 5 thousand dollar machine to the rifle range and shot it over 200 times, releasing that nasty little chemical into the atmosphere. Of course that was the day they were launching the shuttle, so at least I was just going along with what our federal govt was doing.
Oh yeah, later on after most the r12 was dried up and the patent was fixing to expire on r134a, DuPont again announced that it too was not good for the atmosphere.
Yet they didn't have a viable backup plan and chemists that knew about the last fiasco disproved the claim of environmental impact. DuPont wisely left it alone.
08-18-2010, 03:47 PM
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My Comments in GREEN
There are WAY too many millions of mobile A/C equipped vehicles in the world to let them be left with no legal refrigerant to charge them with. With the Kyoto thing to get rid of any GW actor, there were other existing compounds that have since been selected that are non-ozone depleting, AND non-GW . (even harder to make BTW...)
The Greens in Germany/EU have been pushing VERY hard to make CO2 "the" refrigerant for mobile applications... High pressure, heavy and very expensive for OEM's to adopt and expensive for consumers to pay for. I think the automotive market forces nixed that one...
The major chem mfrs and auto OEM's have jointly selected, and have Govt approval on the 3rd generation of mobile A/C refrigerants... That is where it is right now...
There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to evaluate that stuff for health, safety and environmental compatiblity before the market ever sees it. (think lawsuit liability)
The refrig compressor manufacturers worldwide also have a LOT to say in approving what they are expected to be compressing.
What next?
one of my buddies is entirely fed up with Freon, it seems:
So many advances have been made in converting r12 systems to r134a that it's not worth it at all. And all that tree hugger ..... was just the govt finding another way to tax people. DuPont held the patent on r12 until it expired in 95. Nope, a process for making it is patentable, the molecule isn't. Other mfrs like Allied (honeywell) have different patented processes to get to the same commodity molecule..
they didn't want to keep producing it because it was too cost prohibitive.
Nope, Goverment mandated CFC phaseout because of Ozone Hole theory... R12 was stupidly easy and CHEAP to make... Look at the price stickers on some of the old 1lb cans of R12.. $0.65 from Wallyworld etc.
R134a had been around for over a decade initial commercial quantities became avail in ~1990.. The molecule had been known and produced by several mfrs decades before... (even the russians!) There just was no logical demand for it and much cheaper to produce which gave them a better profit margin.Nope, MUCH more diffficult & expensive to produce They started the whole enviroscare on r12 and rode a high profit wagon for at least another 3 years, as they horded millions of lbs of r12 prior to the release of r134a. Govt mandated CFC phaseout was because of the Ozone hole theory... NO manufacturer has the capacity to "hoard" that much without being taxed to death on it... The high price for R12 during/after the CFC phaseout was Government TAX!!!
Did you know that NASA uses more r12 (released into the atmosphere intentionally) with each shuttle launch, than all the cars on the road combined in one calender year. Keeps the shuttle from melting during launch. I believe you are referring to the sprayed foam on the fuel tank... Did you ever hear of foam problems BEFORE they changed to an "environmentally acceptable" blowing agent? Nope...
The federal govt made a fortune in taxes based on sales/excise tax.That is probably very true from their punitive taxation to encourage users to phase-out CFC's
BTW, this is going on right now with HCFC's (R22 etc) EXPENSIVE from taxation only...
The companies that manufactured the recovery/recycle machines that became mandatory in 1995 were all owned by DuPont.
Those same companies designed and marketed a stop leak chemical designed to keep automobiles from leaking the refrigerant. A nasty little side note was that it also clogged the recovery/recycle machines that were costing the consumer over 5k to purchase.
So Robinair (owned by DuPont) was selling a ton of replacement parts so that the shops could conform to the regulation. I prayed for the that day the ozone cops would come in my shop to inspect my compliance. I was gonna handcuff them to my machine, load them up on my open deck trailer and parade them down main street. But after 10 years of compliance they never showed up.
I took my 5 thousand dollar machine to the rifle range and shot it over 200 times, releasing that nasty little chemical into the atmosphere. Of course that was the day they were launching the shuttle, so at least I was just going along with what our federal govt was doing.
Anger Issues?
Oh yeah, later on after most the r12 was dried up and the patent was fixing to expire on r134a, again, that molecule is not patentable!DuPont again announced that it too was not good for the atmosphere. All HFC 134a manufacturers were told by their governments that R134a is now considered a GLOBAL WORMING gas and will be phased out eventually.. No choice by mfrs... Ever heard of KYOTO? world Governments driven
Yet they didn't have a viable backup plan and chemists that knew about the last fiasco disproved the claim of environmental impact. DuPont wisely left it alone.
So many advances have been made in converting r12 systems to r134a that it's not worth it at all. And all that tree hugger ..... was just the govt finding another way to tax people. DuPont held the patent on r12 until it expired in 95. Nope, a process for making it is patentable, the molecule isn't. Other mfrs like Allied (honeywell) have different patented processes to get to the same commodity molecule..
they didn't want to keep producing it because it was too cost prohibitive.
Nope, Goverment mandated CFC phaseout because of Ozone Hole theory... R12 was stupidly easy and CHEAP to make... Look at the price stickers on some of the old 1lb cans of R12.. $0.65 from Wallyworld etc.
R134a had been around for over a decade initial commercial quantities became avail in ~1990.. The molecule had been known and produced by several mfrs decades before... (even the russians!) There just was no logical demand for it and much cheaper to produce which gave them a better profit margin.Nope, MUCH more diffficult & expensive to produce They started the whole enviroscare on r12 and rode a high profit wagon for at least another 3 years, as they horded millions of lbs of r12 prior to the release of r134a. Govt mandated CFC phaseout was because of the Ozone hole theory... NO manufacturer has the capacity to "hoard" that much without being taxed to death on it... The high price for R12 during/after the CFC phaseout was Government TAX!!!
Did you know that NASA uses more r12 (released into the atmosphere intentionally) with each shuttle launch, than all the cars on the road combined in one calender year. Keeps the shuttle from melting during launch. I believe you are referring to the sprayed foam on the fuel tank... Did you ever hear of foam problems BEFORE they changed to an "environmentally acceptable" blowing agent? Nope...
The federal govt made a fortune in taxes based on sales/excise tax.That is probably very true from their punitive taxation to encourage users to phase-out CFC's
BTW, this is going on right now with HCFC's (R22 etc) EXPENSIVE from taxation only...
The companies that manufactured the recovery/recycle machines that became mandatory in 1995 were all owned by DuPont.
Those same companies designed and marketed a stop leak chemical designed to keep automobiles from leaking the refrigerant. A nasty little side note was that it also clogged the recovery/recycle machines that were costing the consumer over 5k to purchase.
So Robinair (owned by DuPont) was selling a ton of replacement parts so that the shops could conform to the regulation. I prayed for the that day the ozone cops would come in my shop to inspect my compliance. I was gonna handcuff them to my machine, load them up on my open deck trailer and parade them down main street. But after 10 years of compliance they never showed up.
I took my 5 thousand dollar machine to the rifle range and shot it over 200 times, releasing that nasty little chemical into the atmosphere. Of course that was the day they were launching the shuttle, so at least I was just going along with what our federal govt was doing.
Anger Issues?
Oh yeah, later on after most the r12 was dried up and the patent was fixing to expire on r134a, again, that molecule is not patentable!DuPont again announced that it too was not good for the atmosphere. All HFC 134a manufacturers were told by their governments that R134a is now considered a GLOBAL WORMING gas and will be phased out eventually.. No choice by mfrs... Ever heard of KYOTO? world Governments driven
Yet they didn't have a viable backup plan and chemists that knew about the last fiasco disproved the claim of environmental impact. DuPont wisely left it alone.
The Greens in Germany/EU have been pushing VERY hard to make CO2 "the" refrigerant for mobile applications... High pressure, heavy and very expensive for OEM's to adopt and expensive for consumers to pay for. I think the automotive market forces nixed that one...
The major chem mfrs and auto OEM's have jointly selected, and have Govt approval on the 3rd generation of mobile A/C refrigerants... That is where it is right now...
There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to evaluate that stuff for health, safety and environmental compatiblity before the market ever sees it. (think lawsuit liability)
The refrig compressor manufacturers worldwide also have a LOT to say in approving what they are expected to be compressing.
What next?
08-18-2010, 04:38 PM
#5
DTR Detective
We still purchase R12, something around $600.00 for 30lbs. some manufactures, Sub Zero and Whirlpool are allowing the use of R414 once out of warranty, I vaguely recall Whirpool allowing it for in-warranty too but I could be wrong. I'd like to switch over to Lok since GE and SZ allow it in place of Solder, but still too cost prohibitive running 5 techs.
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08-19-2010, 07:38 AM
#8
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We still purchase R12, something around $600.00 for 30lbs. some manufactures, Sub Zero and Whirlpool are allowing the use of R414 once out of warranty, I vaguely recall Whirpool allowing it for in-warranty too but I could be wrong. I'd like to switch over to Lok since GE and SZ allow it in place of Solder, but still too cost prohibitive running 5 techs.
We had an old customer come in the other day with 3 full bottles of R12 for $750
Needless to say, I didn't let him leave with them. We didn't need 90lbs, but at that price, I couldn't pass it up.I can't wait for the next great thing
Chris
08-19-2010, 11:30 AM
#9
DTR Detective
R12 in a 30lb with an appliance size valve is around 100-200 more through Johnstone Supply and such, so we buy it with an auto sized valve from one of those auto tool delivery trucks and picked up an adapter. I think it's 650.00, but I always offer 1200.00 for 2 and he takes it.
08-19-2010, 11:44 AM
#10
Registered User
From the article you quoted about NASA
"At the highest launch rate Space Shuttle and Titan launches add less than 0.25% of the total chlorine present in the upper atmosphere." It's the chlorine from the chemical reaction of the SRB's that's eating the ozone.
"At the highest launch rate Space Shuttle and Titan launches add less than 0.25% of the total chlorine present in the upper atmosphere." It's the chlorine from the chemical reaction of the SRB's that's eating the ozone.
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