smiller

Fair enough, but another thing you could say is 'Why get hung up on some of the laws when there isn't any intention of following all of them?'

HOHN

While I agree with a lot of what you have posted, bd, I'd like to add the following....


It doesn't take authority to know how to get to heaven. It takes faith in Jesus-- faith "made alive" by good works (as James might say). We are not saved by works, but by faith (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast)

Maybe your post was meant to simply point out the unique qualification of Jesus and His legitimacy?

But we have to be careful not to fall into the thinking that is so common these days. You know, the thinking that "you haven't lived my life, so who are you to judge?" It's that "walk a mile in someone else's mocassins" thing.

While it IS a good thing to be aware of our own failings and of our weak flesh as human beings, we must NOT let that take us down the road of relativism, where there is no good or evil, and no one can judge anything.

The Scriptural mandate not to judge has become a lot of people's favorite passage, because they believe it grants them license for all kinds of sin.

But that ignores the context. The verse is referring to our need to be aware of our OWN sin and repent. It is NOT saying that we are not to judge another's conduct as good or eveil, right or wrong. It is saying that we should repent (remove the log from our own eyes), receive God's forgiveness, THEN help others to remove their own specks. In other words, we should be able to render sound and righteous judgement when we have dealt with our own sin.

We must make sound and righteous judgments each and every day of our lives, even on the simple drive to work. But the Biblical principle here is that the stick by which we measure others will FIRST be applied to us-- and we probably won't measure up.

Justin

Commatoze

There are several reasons aCatholic confesses his sins to a priest. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces. Through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

During his lifetime Christ sent out his followers to do his work. Before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make God’s forgiveness present to all people.

HOHN

OK, I'll bite.

The issue of homosexual choice is one loaded with implications. One side views homosexuality as a conscious choice, which implies accountability. The other believes that sexuality is pre-ordained at birth, so therefore it would be unfair to judge someone for doing that which they are predisposed to.

As always, the "devil's in the details".

We make millions of choices every day, whether we think about them or not. We choose what to wear, whether to go to work, which route to take, etc.

If someone cuts us off, we have a CHOICE whether or not we get angry. Some people are much more quick-tempered than others; maybe they were even "born that way". So they might get angry more easily.

But if someone kills someone as an act of roadrage, we don't really care whether they are quick-tempered or not. We just know they committed a crime.

The bottom line is that we ARE responsible for our actions, even if there is a part of us that fails to police our thoughts.

Part of the very MEANING of what it is to be human is the process of maturing from a completely selfish infant to an adult able to rein in the worst parts of human nature-- the nature that would have us harm the person who cut us off in traffic, or maybe-- the nature that would even perhaps cause us to feel an immoral sexual attraction to another person of the same gender

We teach our children that they can't just hit someone else when they are upset-- we teach them restraint. We teach them that they must not focus on themselves first if they wish to relate successfully with others. They don't always get what they want for dinner, they eat what is served. etc etc..

Thus, the process of human maturation is one of devloping the ability to restrain our selfish, immoral human nature which is predisposed to sin.

So are homosexuals "born that way"?? OF COURSE THEY ARE!! WE ARE ALL BORN WITH A PREDISPOSITION TO SIN AND COMMIT ALL KINDS OF IMMORALITY.

Yet, somehow we have concluded that homosexuality is such a unique sin that it simply can't be overcome, like habitual lying or constantly taking the name of the Lord in vain.

Why does a gay man get "tolerance" and "understanding" for his sin, while a child abuser is universally condemned?

A lot of "Christians" like to point out how God calls homosexuality an "abomination". True, but ALL sin is abominable to God.

God doesn't care what sin we do-- it's STILL sin. We humans have made the distinction that God didn't of homosexuality as some especially grievous sin. Tell me how the straight blasphemer is better than the gay man. Is he better? Is he worse?

So because I'm not gay, God's going to ignore all my other sin? I mean, EVERYBODY, does the "little sins" I do (so no big deal), but man, those gays are certainly burning in Hell forever, right??

I think a lot of the reason that the gays catch flak is because some people see it as a chance to offer themselves false hope ("well, at least I wasn't THAT bad") without recognizing their own sin. The other reason (which IS legitimate) is that their sin goes against a natural order that is so obvious that even people of no belief in God can see it as abnormal.

Without repentance of our sins and acceptance of Christ, we ARE all going to Hell-- gay, straight, black, white, it doesn't matter.

So let's address the issues in your post which I quoted above.

1) The choice of homosexuality is choosing whether or not you will restrain your immoral impulses. Thus, THERE IS A CHOICE.

2) It is NOT a proven fact that homosexuals are "born that way" any more than one person is born a murderer, another is born a thief, or another a child molester. This is just another attempt to absolve someone of being responsible for their decisions. Moreover, saying that "it's a proven fact" is simply an unadulturated lie. There's no science in it, and no fact in it. It hasn't been proved. It's not something that COULD be proved, even if it were true. The "proven fact" fallacy is common among those who have little scientific training or experience, as this is nothing something that's even relevant to "proof".

3)Christianity is inherently closed-minded. So is the truth. Something is either true or it isn't, there aren't any middle grounds. Save the "all generalizations are false" crap. We all know better. Believing something doesn't make something true or false-- truth is independent of belief. It's just that we as humans can't distinguish this because what we hold as true is what we BELIEVE to be true. Of course, all kinds of beliefs have proven to be false, but few people align their beliefs with truth, they rather assume what they already believe to be true...

4) Jesus did NOT accept everyone. Did he accept the Pharisees whom He constantly referred to as hypcrites? Did he accept the moneychangers that he threw out of the temple? The truth is that the "unconditional" acceptance the Christ supposedly gave out really WAS conditional. But there was only ONE condition-- that person had to accept Christ.
Prostitutes and tax collectors alike were welcomed by Jesus because they accepted him. THEY were open minded. This is why some people where rejected by Christ (Caiphas, among them), as they first rejected Him.
This isn't to say that it would have been to late for any of them. If ANYONE had repented and humbly approached Jesus, they would have been accepted instantly. Even on the cross, Jesus was accepted people's repentance and offering them forgiveness. But, as the other thief now knows, there is no forgiveness offered without repentance.

At least you had this part right:
So let us each "work out our salvation with fear and trmbling"

Justin

HOHN

I'm spent. I'll have to post my issues with Catholicism separately.

Justin

Palmetto_kid

As always, Thanks Justin. This thread needed that. I totally agree with you.

smiller

What in the world makes anyone think that a gay man 'decides' to be attracted to men any more than a straight man 'decides' to be attacted to women? When you reached the right age did you 'choose' to like girls?

Commatoze

I've had to carefully balance my work with responding to these posts! Good thing I have 2 screens.

bdramsey

Quote:

quote: Commatoze
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bdramsey
Thoughts and prayers to whom?

quote: Commatoze

Not the first but the second commandment, where does God say to "pray" to the saints, for intercession of for any other reason?
Being a former Catholic, I'd have thought you'd remember that we group the Commandments differently, though they're the same. It is our First Commandment. Rather, where does it say not to ask for intersessions? Don't you ask friends to pray for a sick relative or maybe even for you? Why is it that if you can go straight to Jesus why do so many people ask for prayers by others. Dare I say that you've asked? I have! I can find several threads on this forum asking for prayers. Let me clarify, we pray with the Saints and ask them to pray for us. For instance here's a typical prayer I might say before a statue of Saint Michael:

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Amen.

-or to the Mother of Our Lord:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To you do we cry poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary! Pray for us, O Holy Mother of Godthat we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

...and how much time does that take out of our visit to Church that you mentioned earlier? The prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In Matthew 18:10, Jesus himself warns us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."


Such as the children of Israel thought when they made the golden calf. Where did God tell people to make statues? or images? What are some of scriptures?

quote: Commatoze

Supposedly they made a golden calf with the express purpose of praying to it. We don't pray to a statue. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm not a Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but here's a few examples :

Numbers 21:4-9
And they marched from mount Hor, by the way that leadeth to the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom. And the people began to be weary of their journey and labour: And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food.Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said; We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes really PO'd. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the king Hezekiah had it destroyed. That's in 2 Kings18:4


Exodus 25:18-20
And you shall make two cherubim (angels) of gold of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision. "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mr. Ramsey, may I ask to what sect of Christianity you belong to?

Pray for one another. I understand that to mean living people on this planet. Not ones that have already gone to the afterlife.

Look upon, does not include pray to or ask the statue to heal them or to intercede.

Images of the cheribums. Exactly that, decoration. Not to intercede to God, or to replace God. but decoration. That is the same as stained glass windows. Even if the window has a design of a individual. Which there is nothing wrong with, as far as I can see.



I gave my explaination of my belief on the very first post. If you have questions read it again. I was very specific.


That's what I was looking for Commatoze, somone else to give some discussion about thier own belief.

A few posts back I said as long as the bottom line does'nt get crossed. Never dropped below, then salvation is safe. A person has to repent of thier sin, believe in thier heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Confess with thier mouth. And love the Lord God with all thier heart mind, soul and strength. Any opinion above that is cool, just as long as it does'nt fall below that standard.

Does that fall under a sect? If so, then which one?

t-15 firefighter

good post justin.

i disagree but i'm at work right now so i can't respond until tomorrow.

i know you're looking forward to that



britt

midlife crisis

Rick- thanks for the reply. -Drew

Commatoze

Catholics pray for the deceased too, and are included in a small section in the core of our Mass. It's our belief that a condition exists where the dead aren't thoroughly cleansed of sin, yet eternal damnation isn't justified either. Although this third place isn't mentioned in scripture, the bible clearly approves of prayers for the dead. Why? Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. To us it means a third condition exists, at least temporarily where the dead dwell to be purified. We believe that getting to Heaven isn't as easy as some make it out to be. "I believe, therefore I'm saved" doesn't cut it for Catholics. BTW, this belief isn't unique to our faith alone. Orthodox Jews recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified.

myk00l

Without a doubt, the Bible that the Almighty God wrote for you and I and every other person on the face of this earth, is indeed the true and ever living Words of God! It has been written for a reason! The Ancient of Days would in no way waste His precious time writing the Bible if it wasn't necessary for you to know these facts. Think of it. God Almighty the Creator of Heaven and Earth, loves you so much that He would put His very thoughts into a book for you to read! This Word of God is actually a treasure map to the greatest prize of all time! HEAVEN

phox_mulder

LDS faithful take it one step further.

Baptisms for the dead.

This is for those who passed on without ever getting the chance to embrace Christianity.

Geneological research plays a big part in this, you don't just go around baptizing any ole departed one.

This is done with the belief that the person for which the rite is being performed has the option of accepting it or not.

Of course, they don't throw holy water on bones or anything like that.
A young man or woman is baptized in the name of the dearly departed one.

I guess there are a lot of similarities between many religions.


phox

myk00l

The bible says

The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalm 115:17
Michael