t-15 firefighter

I didn’t know there had to be benefits but I assume companionship would be one.

Other than the ability to produce offspring what is the benefit of having a spouse?

All of those benefits you could name would be applied for homosexuals also.

I assume that homosexuals share the same wants and needs as heterosexuals.

midlife crisis

Wow- seems like the right place to ask some questions regarding my faith..or lack of. I was raised Roman Catholic. Church every Sunday, even on vacations. Even attempted Sunday school, but the nuns would beat on me so bad, it came to be I would get so nervous about going I would vomit on the ride there. After years of this abuse,I got my father's version of the bible. I often say I was Christened by my dad. I was 12 when my sister died of kidney failure. She was 21. This was the first real sign that something was amiss. My parents continued to "believe"... A little on my father. A Master carpenter, commercial contruction superintendent, and member of the community in many ways. He had literally built churches. In his younger years he did oak floors-many in churchs still standing today. He had put roofs over many peoples heads. He also built schools and learning centers for handicapped kids. My dad died of heart failure at 57. No warning, no goodbye's, nothing. Went to work as he did every day of his life-gone before he hit the floor. The RC priest arrived at the funeral home drunk and incoherent. He stumbled thru the prayers. It was unbelievable. It was right then it hit me. In front of my dead dad, you can serve the lord in the best possible way all your life-and be remembered by a drunk "priest" slurring his cliche's. My dad never got to meet my wife, see his grandaughter or even just retire and relax. Now I have seen these "born again" folks have one hell of a life. Drinking, partying, womanizing, cursing, and breaking every commandment like a sailor on leave. They kill some kid while DWI, "Find Jesus", and suddenly everything is okay. After decades of carrying on at will- suddenly its not okay for anyone else to not do as they do or believe as they believe. Explain that to me. I was married in a Lutheren church. The RC's wanted too much money, too much time, and judged my wifes and my situation before even meeting us. The Luthern Rev would have married a chicken and a goat for another fiver. We are good people. We dont interfere with anyone else's life in any way. We dont push our beliefs, belittle, steal, or treat anyone in a fashion we would not want to be treated. We have been married 10 years, and no matter what will stay together. We made a promise to ourselves- not to someone else that has an unsure existence, and has quite frankly let me down. Now before you counter with the -"life is just a test" cliche- you remember I am tested everyday. My dad didnt get to spend anytime with my daughter ( and a short time with his own) and vice versa. Every second of every day this torments me. I have every right to not believe...heres the question-wouldnt you? One guy asked for some kind of sign about a million posts ago. Something small. I want a sign too. Something small. Cure just 1 disease that affects children. Big Bang theory, evolution, Adam & Eve. I am afraid only one makes sense to me. ( hint..it aint the first or last). Homosexual? I dont know Gods take on it-but mine is keep whatever it is you are to yourself. As a father teaching birds & bees to a child is tough. Birds & Birds is even tougher. Priests sodomizing innocent kids? You have got to be kidding me. I wont make any apologies- you stir up religous thoughts with a group of people and you are going to hear different things. If you would like to answer with a thought process that I can understand-great. Want me to join your group or convert me? You better have race cars, cute girls, and fishing on the mass agenda because the eternal happiness thing is already in the bank. My old man is up there running the joint- and if he says I am in, than I am in.

phox_mulder

In regards to alternative sexual beliefs and practices:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
- Thomas Jefferson

I guess that phrase doesn't mean much anymore.
Might as well throw out the whole document.



No, not off topic, as the Creator is mentioned.


phox

bdramsey

midlife crisis-
Welcome aboard.

I offer condolences for the loss of your Dad, I can't relate because I didn't have a dad after about 12. After that I kinda got adopted by anyone who would give good advice that would'nt get me in trouble. I also offer condolences for the loss of your sister, I never had one, but my baby brother died when he was 8. I spent a very long time being mad at God. Then I put myself in Job's shoes. If you can get a study bible, version maybe a NIV, some have had good understanding when using the Life application study Bible. That is the one my wife uses, I prefer the King James.

Congrats on your marraige. The priest does'nt make the marraige, the husband and wife does.
His name goes on the bottom of it as being a representive of God.
Which would be judged by God himself.
As will all priests, pastors, evangelists for the manner and behavior that they act on God's behalf.
The RC history is very colorful. One of the differences is that they worship the saints, not Jesus even though they are well aware of who Jesus is, and what Jesus did.


Phox-

you got a point. but with the Bible aside that sort of lifestyle does'nt make sense.

I do suppose it is a very effective form of population control....

GIT-R-DONE

I didnt want to turn this into a homosexual thread. That in itself is a whole other topic. As I have stated before, I have many other questions concerning the bible and why things happen the way they do.

Questions for the bible,
1. If God put Adam and Eve together, and God knows all....then he already knew what was going to happen with the apple. Right? Where am I going with this....? Why are we all going through the pain and suffering of life? If God had/has all the answers....why must people suffer from disease, war, hardships, etc. See where I am going with this? Did God have a choice of Putting Adam- Eve there in the garden or to not put them there? It makes no sence to me that we go through the process of life, and God could have put us all in heaven to start with , without all people suffering.

2. How many people out there accept death? I have accepted death many times over. This is my belief, which started when I was at approx 12-14 years old. Death to me is acceptable. It will happen, cant stop it, dont want to stop it. With that said......If you are saved and believe in God.....why would you not want to get to heaven sooner. Many people out there go to doctors and try to do everything in their power to live longer. Since you are all going to heaven, why bother with the docs, so you can get there quicker?

I will stop for now as I dont want this post getting too long and then not get the required time spent on answering.

thanks go to those that have the knowledge and are willing to share the time and wisdom to those that dont have it....

Joe N.

I have been gone for a couple of days and a lot has been written since then. I do want to try to answer a couple of questions that were asked by smiller in regards to one of my previous posts.

You say I am intolerant and gave the following definition to prove it.

intolerant (în-tòl´er-ent) adjective
Not tolerant, especially:. a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.

Go back and read what I wrote. I said that I believe the Bible and its teachings are the infallible words of God and then I said that every person has the freedom to believe what they want. I don't have a problem with anyone having different opinions or beliefs from mine. You say you cannot accept my belief that there is only one way to Heaven. According to your definition that makes you the intolerant one because you can't tolerate my belief. I think my beliefs are more right than yours and you think that your beliefs are more right than mine. Which one of us is being intolerant?

We started discussing our beliefs and some of us expressed a belief that the only way to Heaven was by faith in Jesus and that all that do not believe would go to hell. We were simply expressing what we believe but several people have been quick to tell us we are wrong and that it was not an acceptable belief. Is that not being intolerant toward us?

You asked was it acceptable to stone a child as stated in Deuteronomy. No it is not. When Jesus came he stated that he had come to fulfill the law. Many Jews were trying to obey the law to attain salvation and He became our salvation when he was crucified and then resurrected. He stated in Matthew 22:37-40, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandments. A second is equally important: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

If you remember, in John 8:1-11, the Pharisees brought a woman to Jesus and said they had caught her in the act of adultery which was punishable by stoning. They asked Jesus what they should do. Jesus stooped down and wrote something in the dust with his finger then stood and said "All right, stone her. But let those who have never sinned throw the first stones". He then stooped down again and began writing in the dust and all the accusers left. We don't know what He wrote but it was enough that the men realized they were wrong. Jesus taught that we should love and help each other but that our first responsibility was to God.

Concerning women speaking in church. This all occured almost 2000 years ago and the world was a much different place. Women were considered second class citizens by much of the world. However Jesus actually talked with women which was revolutionary then - one example is in John 4 where Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman. Not only was she a woman but she was a Samaritan and for a Jew to talk to a Samaritan was unheard of. Jesus showed us by His example that women were equal to men. However there was a religion that worshiped Diana and women would serve there as prostitutes. The Christian church was established and one reason women were asked to be quiet in church and were not allowed to teach men was so that the Christian church would be separate and distinct from the pagan churches.

Many people make the mistake of taking one verse from the Bible and using it to prove whatever point they are trying to prove. Verses can be taken singly as long as they are not taken out of context. There are many verses that are hard to understand much less explain and sometimes these "hard" verses are used to try to prove that the Bible contradicts Itself. The Bible does not contradict Itself. I don't pretend to understand everything in the Bible and I surely cannot explain everything. If we are going to understand what the Bible says we have to read it and study it. Remember the Bible was written over a period of almost 2000 years. To fully understand some verses you have to understand the culture of the people at the time the verses were written. That is one reason it is important to find a church with a good Bible teaching preacher and attend that church regularly. People that have studied the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages many times can explain verses that don't make sense to us laymen.

A lot has been said about Christians that go to church on Sunday but live like the devil the rest of the time. Not everyone that professes to be a Christian is a Christian. The Bible says that we are not to judge each other but it also says that a Christian can be known by their deeds. A person that lives like the devil most likely belongs to the devil but only God and that person really know what is in their heart.

I want to encourage everyone that is reading these posts to read 2 books. First the Bible and then "Hell? Yes!" by Robert Jeffress. There are 7 chapters in Jeffress' book that deal with most of the subjects we have been discussing - 1 Every Other Religion is Wrong, 2 God Is Ultimately Responsible for Suffering, 3 God Sends Good People to Hell, 4 Homosexuality Is a Perversion, 5 Husbands Are to Be the Leaders of Their Families, 6 Evolution Is a Myth, 7 America Is a Christian Nation. For those of you looking for evidence, Jeffress provides a lot of evidence.

I have to agree with Palmetto_Kid that this post has run its course. We have gone from discussing to being argumentative. If anyone wants to PM me with a question or about something I have said I will respond but otherwise I think I will go back to reading about CTDs.

Commatoze

Where in the world did you come up with that notion? Possibly from a Jack Chick publication? Visit any RC church anywhere and see who's hanging from a cross above the alter. I'll give you a hint, it ain't a saint! When Catholics make the sign of the cross, we remind ourselves of the Trinity, a basic tennent of Christianity. When we receive Holy Communion, we believe we're receiving the actual body and blood of Christ himself. And who's this hanging from the chain around my neck for last 40 years? It certainly looks like a crucified individual. If you actually believe what you stated above, may I suggest that you need to explore and research other faiths before postulating them on the forum.

Do we worship saints? No, not if by "worship" you mean "adore." We venerate" or "honor" the saints. We may include saints in our prayers asking them to pray for us or to intercede on our behalf (my wife is always asking St. Anthony help her find a lost item). In fact on November 1st we have a special Mass called a holy day of obligation that we must attend to honor all of the Saints that have gone before us. The only one we can and must worship, i.e. adore, is the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And may I add, if anyone has any questions or misconceptions of the Roman Catholic faith, Id be glad to try my best to work through an answer for them. bdramsey, you eluded that are "differences". Care to elaborate?

bdramsey

Call it adore, venerate. It doesn't matter. I was not running the RC into the ground.
All through the Bible it talks and teaches joy, the joy of Lord, the celebration of redemption. I grew up in catholisisim, not to make light the work of the saints but The whole cornorstone of Chrisitanity is the remission of our sind through, and by Jesus himself. At our request Jesus removes our sin. There is not a ceremony (i.e. confession) required. If a sin is committed then repentance is asked, and given without pennance. I work with a catholic man, I asked him one time who can goto heaven, and he told me that it is ultimatly up to God himself. Good point. That is true in the very literalist understanding. God chose to use Jesus as mediator for the human race. I don't find justification for the drunk priest that midlife spoke about, because there is not a justification. The bible clearly says that no drunk shall ever into into heaven. The celebration of our redemption is hinged upon Christ's sacrifice, I remember going to the Masses, and remember how much it often felt like a funural. We are not to worhip idols. Knowing full well that God raised Jesus from the dead. The rememberance is of his crucifixtion. God hates idolatry. He considers statues that are worshipped idolotry. When a person goes to a catholic church to pray to Jesus, do they not pray to the statue? Should our celebration time for God be absorbed by the saints and apostles? It is not a chance that I choose to take. Is it wrong to goto confession? I don't see whay it would be wrong, but I do see it as being ineffective. Considering that Jesus is the only one that can redeem our sins by confession.
But, that is why I said what I said about worshipping the saints, not Jesus.

kandgo

Finally someone who has a twin copy of my life, I too have had the most of the same hands dealt to me as you have described, went through some churches and out the back door, and gave up on it for years, Then NOW listen up, I on my own with no outside help picked up the Bible and started reading the New Testament first, it took a while and then the impression to pray startded in, after the prayers went for a while and{ and I had to tell him all my thoughts about him and this whole religion thing and how the bible was crap and I did not like reading it}} I kept it up, and the Lord opened my mind and I started to understand what most of what I was reading and had read up to that point. Do not let anyone but God tell you how to believe, just pick up the Bible and read it yourself and pray to him and you will grow a relationship that is meant to be, not some superficial one that is taught in some churches, God will lead you to a church when you are ready and you will see some of the biggest hypocrites on earth, but at that time God will be your focus and man will not be. Man kind will fail you, God will not. And letting men like the priest stand before you and God, don't let the man win get you a easy read Bible and get after it and I promise if you keep it up through the hard time of wanting to throw it out the door you will be Blessed and the understanding will overwhelm you. Goodluck, I will be praying for you to do it on your own. Rick

bdramsey

well spoken kandgo. Seems like everyone else has the right words but me..... what I say gets me in trouble.

I started this post not to convert anyone, not to persuade anyone. But, like the title said "Biblical References", That means events, descriptions, understanding. etc. Not conversion. Questions are fine to be asked. When the answers are contoversial, which some will be. There should not be any personal attack made. This thread was intended to be general. I think it is amazing the amount of diversity found in these threads. Testomonies are fine, real life experiances are fine, expectations are fine. I see through this thread, Christianity. Like all beliefs there is always mal-contents. So far it would appear to me that the belief of of Christians has been very vocal, exact, and non-discrimitory. We have spoken our belief very clearly. There are those that disagree, but have'nt given details on the basis of thier belief. So far what I have seen is in-difference to eternal life. And how Chrisitans are wrong. Why are Christians wrong? Those telling us that we are wrong, please explain your beliefs. We are being told to convince others about our belief, but it does'nt appear that other that don't believe as we do are not providing details about thier belief. In order to keep a fair platform this must be done. Otherwise, the door would be open for personal attack, none of us want that here.
This thread has remained open because of the patience of the moderators, let's not push thier patience. It is us who are guests here. The owner(s) of this website have allowed us to be able to hold this discussion. Let's not abuse it. Please, let's not abuse it.

smiller

Joe,

Thanks for your response, and I really mean it. I was wondering if anyone was going to try to take those questions on.

I've copied what I took to be the central thought in your response above and I can't say that I disagree with you there. There really aren't any philosophical works, including the bible, where it is fair to take individual sections out of context rather than looking at the body of work as a whole.

But I guess that's what I find confusing. Some religious conservatives seem to do just that, for example quoting one of the few negative references concerning homosexuality (just an example, not trying to redirect the thread) and using it to proclaim that homosexuality is an automatic and irreconcilable sin. If the bible should not be quoted by bits and pieces and should be looked at as a whole then it would seem that the overall message of love and forgiveness might overshadow a few negative quotes about homosexuals, just as it overshadows specifc quotations commanding one to a stone a rebellious son or not allow one's wife to speak in church.

There seems to be a big conflict in that some specific quotations can be overlooked in the interest of looking at the bible as a whole, but others seem to be taken literally. When this happens it sure looks like the reader is quoting his or her own moral code, not necessarily that of the bible. I'm not trying to be argumentative here by the way, just trying to make my point understood.

Commatoze

Good question. But, didn't you say in your last post that we "...worship saints, not Jesus..."? This is a common misconception of my faith. We all have pictures of loved ones in our home, maybe deceased. Some may gaze at the image and maybe even pick it up and place a kiss on it remembering the person. The presence of statues and pictures our church allow us to focus out thoughts and prayers. To make and honor the images of Christ, His holy and virginal Mother, and of the Saints, is not only not forbidden by the First Commandment, but has always been deemed a holy practice and an indication of gratitude. The Catholic Church condemns idolatry. As far as the First Commandment is concerned, there are two chief ways in which God can be seriously outraged. The first way is by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship. The other way is by attempting to form a representation of the Deity, as if He were visible to mortal eyes, or could be reproduced by colours or figures. It would be idolatry if we were adoring the piece of wood, but, indeed, what we do is honor the person represented by the wood-carved-into-the-statue-of-a-saint. It's quite a difference! Finally if you look Sacred Scripture, you will see numerous instances where God Himself commanded images to be made, sometimes for purposes of religious worship.

It certainly does matter!

bdramsey

Are there positive references concerning homosexuality? Homosexuality is not an automaticly irecconsilible sin. (boy that's a big ol word... too many sylables ). An automatic and ireconsilible sin is "blaspheming" the holy spirt. All others can and will be forgivinen contigent on admission. A sin can't be forgiven until it is admitted, and known as a sin. Which the holy spirit does do that. Things are brought under conviction, some like to refer to that as having a guilty conscience.

That is my understanding. As far as the issue of stoning a disobiediant child, I would'nt recommend that. The law of the prophets (including Moses), was fulfilled by Jesus.
Why get hung up on one of the laws when there is'nt any intention of following any of them? Looks like nitpicking to me.

bdramsey

Thoughts and prayers to whom?

Not the first but the second commandment, where does God say to "pray" to the saints, for intercession of for any other reason?

Such as the children of Israel thought when they made the golden calf. Where did God tell people to make statues? or images? What are some of scriptures?

It does

Commatoze

Mr. Ramsey, may I ask to what sect of Christianity you belong to?