bdramsey

Hey guys... looks like some people's toes are getting stepped on.......... back a few post ago I pointed out some of the differences in societal acceptance of religions. All religions other than tru Christianity require somthing. example: War, violence, murder, good deeds, paying your way to heaven.

True Christianity doesn't require any of those things. Just acceptance, that's all. Acceptance of a FREE gift.

Yes there have been those that use the Christian title for personal gain, or influence. Jesus said to go into all the world a preach the Gospel, even to the ends of the earth. He didn't say to go and use influence, extortion, violence or PERSUASION. Who is responsible for those out there in the middle of nowhere that do not hear about Jesus? That reponsibility falls on true Christians. No one else.

We true Christians are HATED by those that think we are narrow minded, cynical, and thiefs. Those accusation are brought on in a GENERAL sterotype. Most of the true Christians do NOT own telivision stations, do NOT own mercedes, do NOT have to make people feel guilty so that they get free money.

This is an individual belief. I find it amazing that there are so many that view these posts from all over the world, who have been in EXACT agreement of what is required, and expected. Anyone else find that a little supernatural?

Look at it like this. There is a line that cannot be crossed, like a line through the center of a graph. As long as belief, opinion, understanding does not fall below that line there is no damnation. That does not make us narrow minded, we have opinions, and we are made fun of, persecuted, lied to, stolen from, and yet we don't retaliate. Show me that in the current worldly acceptable behavior.

t-15 firefighter

Hello mexstan,

To be honest I really don't need any answers to any references.

Here is a quote from an earlier post from you in reference to the part of the world that doesn’t get to choose.

This, I’m afraid, is where you and I differ. I know you go by the biblical translation of the bible, but I do not. I could not believe in a god that allows 66% of the worlds population to go to this so-called hell because they have NO opportunity to choose. What kind of god do you believe in? This doesn’t sound fair to me. It’s a good thing you were born where you were (in a place that lets you practice Christianity) otherwise you would be going to hell.

Now you say that somewhere down the line these people will be given a choice to choose Christianity.
Lets look at that point. I assume that you were brought up in a Christian family. I could be wrong but usually this is how it works. If this is the case then you will be predisposed to a Christian way of thinking. If I am wrong please correct me. Now using your logic (Quote: However, somewhere along the line they will have been given a chance and will have turned it down… End Quote) this would be like someone coming to your house and proclaiming that Buddha is the god of all things and if you do not worship him you will be going to this place of eternal fire and pain. I know this is a very loose translation but you get my point. I doubt very much that you would even think about converting. So using your logic you will be going to hell according to them? Don’t you think if they are given some information about Christianity, and they have been brought up Buddhist all of their life, that they might not be interested in converting? Just as you wouldn’t be interested.

I’m just taking your definition of the biblical translation.

Now if you want to answer any references to the bible then answer my question about Abraham a few post ago. How could you believe in a god that would ask that of someone? Once you answer that then I will give you another to answer and another and another………………

Please remember, I’m not saying that you are wrong. I just don’t believe the same as you do.


I look forward to your reply.

Britt

t-15 firefighter

Unless you consider the Crusades from England in the middle ages or all the people that were burned at the stake for not believing in Christianity.



I don’t hate you in any way shape or form.

Although I may think you might be narrow minded, I don’t consider you a thief.. I don’t even know you (other then speaking with you on these post). As far as I know, you are a great guy. We just differ in our beliefs.

smiller

I believe t-7 firefighter was referring to some questions that I had posed earlier.

Repeating here, I was asking those who felt that the bible was the literal, absoultely correct, and infallible word of God to comment on whether they believe in stoning a stubborn and rebellious son (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and that their wives should never be allowed to speak in church (Corinthians 14:34-35)?

smiller

Could you expand a bit on this and give some examples? I'd like to better understand exactly what you're saying here.

I'm not sure I understand this either. Good deeds and being a good person are not required for entrance into Heaven? The only requirement is acceptance of the divinity of Jesus? It is not required to follow all of the teachings in the bible? If so, more is required than just acceptance of Jesus, an entire and specific moral code is required as well. Is only acceptance of Jesus required as you mentioned above, or is it acceptance of Jesus and adopting a literal interpretation of the bible?

bdramsey

The crusades were no different than today's muslim way of thinking, some are overzealous, and want to force others........ I think about that show "Bruce Almighty", when jim carry asked "god" what happened during the middle ages, he said he went on vacation............. Almost makes sense doesn't it?

I know you specifically don't hate me, but I don't picture you as being over-zealous and trying to shove your belief down, my throat like some religions and beliefs do I think everyone in this thread has been able to open alot of eyes and cause almost all of us to do some serious thinking.

I do believe that it would not be God that sends those multitudes to hell, I do believe that it would constitute of a failure on tru Christian's part. Accordning tp the Bible I and others that believe in the literal translation of the Bible have done our part in spreading the gospel. Have we done it in completness? I would think not, since this is one area. For everyone that has read these posts in this thread there is a decision that has to be made......... rejection or acceptance..... This is how simple it is to spread the gospel.... just put it on the table, let God do the rest.

Thieves...... referring to thieves I was talking about some of the televangelists that sucker people into sending them money or else they will goto hell.

I am absolutly amazed at the progress that this thread has made, and the "tone" that has been kept.

Thanks Guys!

bdramsey

quote:
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Originally posted by bdramsey
Hey guys... looks like some people's toes are getting stepped on.......... back a few post ago I pointed out some of the differences in societal acceptance of religions. All religions other than tru Christianity require somthing. example: War, violence, murder, good deeds, paying your way to heaven.
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Once a person legitamatly repents of thier sins, and accepts Jesus into thier life to live inside thier heart. Then the rest will follow. Like our human bodies, our spirit also needs to be fed, and that is done by reading the bible. Jesus said "If you love me, you will keepo my commandments" What are Jesus' commandments?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and body.
The second and equally important is to "Love one another".

All the rest will follow....... it is absolutly amazing how it falls in place. I am proff and I am sure there is others out there that have proof also.

bdramsey

Stoning was harsh, but it was the law at the time. I really don't think that it ever actually got taken out of tradition, but I think that the New Testament (covanent), took the place of the old law in it's completness. does this mean that the 10 commandments are to be thrown out the window? no it does not, those commanments are more than just guidelines, they are still in the new testament, same meaning, just worded differently.
God is still soviern
Not to worship the created instead of the creator
Swearing or cursing using God's name. I think that falls under blasphemy now
Remember the sabbath ---- "Forsake not the gathering of yourselves together"
Not kill
No adultry
No stealing
No lying
Desiring what is not yours

Still the same laws, just worded differently

Hope that helps

smiller

Thanks for the response. To get a little more clarification from you or anyone else who would like to respond...

Is it permissible to stone a rebellious son to death as stated in Deuteronomy 21:18-21? Yes or no?

Is it required that your wife never speak in church as stated in Corinthians 14:34-35? Yes or no?

Is it ever permissible to ignore biblical law and use contemporary standards in their place? If so, how do you know which laws can be modified to suit modern understandings and which must be followed to the letter?

I would really like to get a specific response to each of these questions as this concept seems pretty fundamental to the discussion.

Thanks -

bdramsey

Stone a rebellious son to death.....No

Due to the traditions at the time.. The women were to be quiet and not ask the questions, but were to ask thier husbands. In my opinion, this was to help maintain order in the church. God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of the church/husband, the husband is the head of the wife. that is the ranking order of the time. Today if you tried to tell your wife not to talk in the church you might end up with a shiner......or two.... and you might not see her for a week.... then only a little bit through one eye

Since I am the spiritual head of my houshold, my wife does come to me with questions, and if I don't have an answer I goto our paster. She talks to the pastor too, but the hierarchy really isn't discussed.

The old testament laws were for the old testament. The new testament law is for the new testament, since we live under the new testament law, the laws such as not eating pork are not valid in the new testament. Jesus fulfilled the law. That is about all it says. Jesus's was always straightening out the law for the pharasees, and scribes. They held people to the law of the old testament, therefor there was no grace. Under the new law, there is grace. As far as what laws can be bent, I would seriously pray to see what God's direction is. The new testament says that we are to follow the laws of our government until they break God's law. The mosaic law was designed and intended to teach the children of Israel how to be an independant nation, they had learn how to think for themselves.

I would'nt recommend stoning the nearest prostitute you came across. Jesus showed grace, and mercy to the one mentioned in the Bible. Since we are to pattern ourselves after Jesus.

Mexstan

TurbosAmoungUs. OK, here goes in trying to answer your question about tithing. Sorry that it turned into a sort of a mini- sermon, but I could not find a way to properly answer you any other way. Hope your question is answered.

Most of you reading this know that Jesus talked a lot about love, hell, sin and repentance. However, do you also know that besides love and all the other things that Jesus spoke about money more than anything else? 1 Tim 6:10 says: “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wondered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs”. This verse is talking about greed and means that greed leads to all kinds of evil which includes marriage problems, robbery, blowups in partnerships, unhappiness and much more. To master greed you must control it at its root. Get rid of the desire to be rich. (Give all your money to me )

In the Old Testament God introduced a word that many of do not like to hear. That word is ‘Tithe”. The word tithe means a tenth part or 10%. Giving less than 10% is not tithing. In the Old Testament tithing did not only mean money because most folks did not draw a paycheck as we know it today. Almost everything was related to agriculture because the economy was based around agriculture and farming. A tenth of what you give to God could also mean your time, or 10% of your produce.

Who owns what you think you have? Is it you or God? You cannot ‘give’ to God. As the creator and the sustainer of the universe He already owns everything. Your life, the very beating of your heart, is itself a gift from God. Psalm 24:1 tells us that the earth’s is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world and all who live in it.
Psalm 50:7-12 says: “Hear O my people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you. I am God, your God, I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices or your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine and all that is in it”.
Haggai 2:8 says “The silver is mine and the gold is mine declares the Lord God Almighty.

Romans 11:35 asks a rhetorical question. It says; “Who has ever given to God that God should repay him”. This question is not given an answer because the answer is obvious. You cannot give to God with any expectation that God will end up being in debt to you. There is a law of sowing and reaping and there are rewards for good works. But contrary to the teachings of the prosperity crowd, you cannot act so as to place God in your dept.

At a very early date in the history of man God made it clear that a definite portion of our income should be devoted to Him. Way back in Genesis 18 the revelation from God appears to be centered around three things. 1. The offering of sacrifices to God. 2. The observance of the Sabbath and 3. The giving of tithes. BTW, there is a difference between a tithe and an offering. A tithe is 10% of your income. An offering is any amount over and above what you tithe, such as gifts for special projects, the church building fund, missions etc. Tithing is God’s minimum standard, the starting point.

In both the old and new testament there are many scriptures relating to tithing but I am only going to mention a few today. Proverbs 3:9 tells us to “honor the Lord with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops.” The firstfruits refers to the practice of giving to God’s use the first and best portion of the harvest. Many people give God their leftovers. If they can afford to donate anything, they do so. These people may be sincere and contribute willingly, but their attitude is very backward. It is better to give God the first part of our income. This demonstrates that God, not possessions, has first place in our lives and that our resources belong to Him. We are only managers of God’s resources. Giving to God first helps us to conquer greed, helps us to properly manage God’s resources and opens us up to receive God’s special blessings.

Proverbs 3:9 which we have just read tells us what to do with our firstfruits. Verse 10 goes on to say what will happen when we do. It says “then your barns will be filled to overflowing and your vats will brim over with new wine”. Remember that this was written in a time when most families were somehow involved with agriculture. Turn that into modern terms and it will apply to you.

Those of you who have read thru the historical books of Scripture know full well how miserably Israel failed to obey the law of tithing, how that almost every instruction that God handed down to Moses was disregarded. But what is significant is this: that in each of the great revivals that God sent to Israel, tithing is mentioned as being restored and renewed among them.


Here are 11 reasons from God’s word why everybody should tithe:

1) Because God commanded it. Leviticus 27:30 tells us that “A tithe of all you produce is the Lord’s and it is Holy.

2) Because Jesus commands it. In Matt 23:23 Jesus said; “Yes you should tithe, and you should not leave the more important things undone either. Tithing was the only thing that Jesus commended the Pharisees for doing.

3) Because tithing shows that God has first place in your life. The Living Bible in Deut 14:23 says: “The purpose of tithing is to teach you to put God first place in your life. If God does not have first priority in your finances, He is not really in your life,”

4) Because it reminds me that everything I have was given to me by God. Deut 8:18 says; “Always remember that it is the Lord your God who gives you the ability to produce wealth”. Rather than feeling that you are giving God 10% of your money, you should realize that God is letting you keep 90% of HIS money. Without God’s help you would have nothing.

5) Because tithing expresses my gratitude to God for helping me to earn income. Psalm 116:12 puts it this way; “How can I repay the Lord for all His goodness to me?” Here is the answer from Deut 16:17 “Each of you should bring a gift in proportion to the way the Lord your God has blessed you”.

6) Because refusing to tithe is stealing from God. If you don’t tithe God says that you are using money that rightfully belongs to Him. In Malachi 3 God says; “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you ask, how do we rob you? God says, in tithes and offerings. Bring your whole tithe to My house.” God has the right to whatever He asks for from you.

7) Because tithing gives God the chance to prove that He exists and that He wants to bless you. “Bring me your tithe. Test me in this says the Lord, and see if I won’t throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops and the vines in your fields will be protected from plagues.” This is one of the most amazing promises in the Bible. God actually offers you a challenge. He says “I dare you. Start tithing and see what happens”. He not only promises to bless you with more, but He also promises to protect what you already have. In the Bible, tithing is the only way given that you can prove that God exists. Start tithing and get ready for God’s blessing.

8) Because it is essential to spiritual growth! Just as you grow in everything, in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in earnestness and love, see that you also grow in the grace of giving. Many Christians remain spiritual babies because they disobey God by not tithing.

9) Because tithing shows that I really love God. Matt 6:21 tells us that “Where your treasure is, your heart will be also”. Wherever you put your money is where your affection is going to be. Every time you give back to God you are drawn closer to him. You may say you love God but 2 Cor 8:8 says that your giving tests the sincerity of your love. You can give without loving, but you cannot love without giving. Jesus in John 14:15 said “If you really love me, do what I command:.

10) Because tithing is an investment for eternity. Jesus told us in Matt 6:19-20 to store up treasures in heaven. Now how do you do that? By investing your money in helping people get to heaven. Most of the things you spend your money on will not even last for ten years, much less last for eternity.

11) Because you cannot outgive God. There are more promises in the Bible connected to giving than any other subject. Giving unlocks the promises of God in your life. When you give, God always gives back to you in a greater degree. Jesus in Luke 6:38 told us “For if you give, you will get. Your gift will return to you in full and overflowing measure. Whatever measure you use to give it will be used to measure what is given back to you.

smiller

Boy, I'm getting more and more confused!

Why is stoning a rebellious son not OK? Because the law was in the the Old Testament? Can the Old Testament be ignored when necessary?

Corinthians is in the New Testament and the passge I quoted is very clear. Why is your wife allowed to speak in Church? The bible doesn't say it's OK if you are worried about getting a shiner .

Can man (even a pastor) modify what is said in clear text in the bible? If the results of an individual person's prayers conflict with the bible, is the individual allowed to do as he sees fit? You seem to be saying 'yes' to thse last two questions... do I take your meaning correctly?

t-15 firefighter

not really......



okay....so if i understand you correctly.....because of the failure of christians a certain number of people would be sent to hell????
and these people would be sent there through no fault of their own? just because christians didn't get to them in time?


wow




i know....



so am i

t-15 firefighter

hey mexstan,

i want a mini sermon



britt

bdramsey

There are some folks that do fully practise thier wife being silent. If you want your wife (assuming you are married to a woman, I don't know if you are male or female), to be quiet at church, then your wife would do so, in submission to your authority that God has given you over your household. Even in the current day there are places in the middle east where women are not allowed to even show thier head/face.
Are you asking if there should be women preachers? I don't agree with women preachers, however God can use whomever he chooses, there were prophetesses mentioned in the Bible. Men and women were not designed to be equal in responsibilities. I'm not trying to be chauvanistic. Honest, I'm not. God created woman as an helpmeet, not a helper, but a helpmeet to help man. Men are to treat women as the weaker vessel, that doesn't mean walk all over women, but men are incomplete without women, and women are incomplete without men. Women are supposed to respect thier husbands, and husbands are to love thier wife as Christ loves the church.

Or should women not whisper in church? No, they should not utilize the church to be a gossip center.
Or should women not be in the chior?Women have more beautiful voices than most men I know, so yes I think women could be in the chior. Should be? it's up to them, not a forced place.


Goto hell of no fault of thier own...... Yes, if they were not given the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus. It is our reponsibility to get the gospel out. We are all born as sinners, ir-regardless of which country, or where in that country we are born. That is why missionary work is so essential. Here in America, it is difficult to find somone who has never ever heard of Jesus, or God. Almost all people have heard, almost all have also rejected Jesus. Does this mean that somone in the middle of the african plain, who knows that there has to be a creator, but has never heard about Jesus will goto hell?
Yes.
Jesus said the gospel will be preached to the whole world before he comes again. He told us to preach it to every creature.