Biblical References
10-02-2004, 10:27 PM
#136
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Actually, hasn't the Ram been a sign of the Devil throughout history?
I'm sure there's Biblical references to Blue Ovals as well as Bowties.
Uhoh, we're all doomed.
phox
The above post was slightly sarcastic in nature
I'm sure there's Biblical references to Blue Ovals as well as Bowties.
Uhoh, we're all doomed.
phox
The above post was slightly sarcastic in nature
10-02-2004, 10:41 PM
#138
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Originally posted by wannadiesel
I think that's the goat, Jerry. Those Pontiac enthusiasts are in league with the devil.
I think that's the goat, Jerry. Those Pontiac enthusiasts are in league with the devil.
10-02-2004, 11:10 PM
#139
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Am I intolerant?
I believe the Bible is absolutely true, the infallible Word of God. The Bible says that there is only one way to salvation and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that and I have accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. I also believe that every person has the freedom to choose whether or not they believe what the Bible says. If a person chooses not to believe in the Bible that is their business and if that person has their own idea of how to attain salvation then that is their business also. I believe God said in the Bible that any way other than Jesus will result in a person spending eternity in hell.
The Bible teaches that after death comes eternal life. We must all be sure that our beliefs will lead us to salvation. I am secure in my salvation and I hope each of you feel the same way.
Christians believe that the Bible is true and contains the plan of salvation. Other religions believe the same thing about their books. They can't all be true because that would be contradictory. We each have to pick out the one that we believe is true and do what it says. Eternity, life after death, is something we should all give careful consideration. Just be sure that whatever path you follow is the correct one.
Christians are a small percentage of the world's population and we believe that Christianity, faith in Jesus Christ, is the only way to salvation. Does that make us intolerant even though we believe every person has the free will to choose for himself?
I believe the Bible is absolutely true, the infallible Word of God. The Bible says that there is only one way to salvation and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that and I have accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. I also believe that every person has the freedom to choose whether or not they believe what the Bible says. If a person chooses not to believe in the Bible that is their business and if that person has their own idea of how to attain salvation then that is their business also. I believe God said in the Bible that any way other than Jesus will result in a person spending eternity in hell.
The Bible teaches that after death comes eternal life. We must all be sure that our beliefs will lead us to salvation. I am secure in my salvation and I hope each of you feel the same way.
Christians believe that the Bible is true and contains the plan of salvation. Other religions believe the same thing about their books. They can't all be true because that would be contradictory. We each have to pick out the one that we believe is true and do what it says. Eternity, life after death, is something we should all give careful consideration. Just be sure that whatever path you follow is the correct one.
Christians are a small percentage of the world's population and we believe that Christianity, faith in Jesus Christ, is the only way to salvation. Does that make us intolerant even though we believe every person has the free will to choose for himself?
10-02-2004, 11:20 PM
#140
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Originally posted by Joe N.
Am I intolerant?
Am I intolerant?
Not tolerant, especially:. a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
You've repeated the line that all other religions besides your own are false and that any human being on earth who does not adopt your own religious beliefs will be punished by God, and yes, this fits my (and most people's) definition of intolerance. The fact that you were 'asked' your opinion or deign to provide non-believers with free will does not change the definition of the word or the meaning behind it.
Originally posted by Joe N.
I believe the Bible is absolutely true, the infallible Word of God.
I believe the Bible is absolutely true, the infallible Word of God.
10-03-2004, 06:51 AM
#141
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
As there have been a few comments about cults I am going to try and define a cult in detail. By definition a cult is a religious belief and practice calling for devotion to a religious view centered on false doctrines. The marks of a cult are as follows;
1. BOGUS BIBLES
a) The view that God has spoken in recorded words outside, or apart from, the Bible since He gave us the New Testament scriptures. This seems to be forbidden in Rev 22:18, 19
b) This “new” revelation often opposes the direct teaching of the Bible. Beware of anyone who says he has a special revelation from God. There is no special verbal revelation from God apart from the Bible.
2. SALVATION BY WORKS.
The teaching that eternal life depends on something we do and other than faith in the work of Christ on the cross
a) Salvation is therefore dependant on human responsibility.
b) The gospel is very clear that we are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8, 9)
c) The message of the cults finally boils down to required obedience to a set of obligations and practices in order to obtain salvation.
3. UNCERTAIN HOPE
This refers to the view that we can never be sure, while we are in this world, that we have eternal life.
a) The issue of salvation is never settled.
b) The believing Christian CAN be very certain of salvation .(1 Peter 1:3-6, Eph 1:13, Heb 6:19, 1 John 5:13)
4. PSEUDO SAVIORS
This is the idea that a contemporary human being has been appointed by God to be a special saint, guru or messiah.
a) For example; Joseph Smith claimed that his teachings were the only true doctrines of the Christian church; Sun Myung Moon claims to be the second incarnation of Christ; Lord Maitreya claims to be the Christ of the New Age; even Charles Manson claimed to be the Christ.
b) The Bible shows that Jesus Christ is the only true messiah and the ONLY way to the Father (John 14:6)
5. CONFUSING DOCTRINE
The cults are characterized by an indefinite system of doctrine which often changes with every new wind that blows. The cults intend to confuse, not to clarify.
a) It is almost impossible to understand what a cultist believes about God, biblical inspiration, eternity and many other subjects.
b) larity of belief is one of the characteristics of true Christianity.
c) The cults try to lure people away from the truth (2 Tim 4:3, 4)
6. PROPHETIC PUTDOWNS
A cult leader will often say that his teachings are the only true ones and that all other religious systems are false. For example, Joseph Smith began Mormonism because an ‘angel’ told him that all Christian denominations at that time were false. In contrast to this denunciation by others, Christ even prayed for those who were crucifying him.
7. THE “GNOSIS” KNOWS.
In one way or another, each cult claims to have the ‘inside scoop’ on the truth. These ‘special discoveries’ are often shrouded with mystery and secret initiation rites, such as; A ‘vision’ on a mountain, a voice in a prayer tower, an angel coming to them with golden tablets and special glasses.
a) These things cannot be supported historically or scientifically.
b) In contrast with this, the truth of Christianity does not depend on private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships. Christianity can be supported through history, archaeology and science.
8. DIETY DENIAL
This term refers to a false view of the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ.
a) A cult will usually deny the true deity of Christ, His true humanity or the true union of the two natures in one person. For instance; Christian Science denies the existence of the physical. (therefore Christ could not have had a real body).
Jehovah’s Witnesses deny that Jesus is God.
b) The central truth of Christianity is related to the question “Who do you say the Christ is”? (Matt 22:42) Only the true Christian can answer this correctly. Christianity affirms the true deity and the true humanity of our Saviour.
9. CONTORTED CONTEXT.
This is the dangerous practice of paying attention to one verse or a passage of the Bible to the exclusion of the others. For example, Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, used Matthew 24:7 (nation will rise against nation) in order to claim that the beginning of WW 2 in 1914 marked the second coming of Christ, despite the lack of consistency with other prophecy in the New Testament. It is always dangerous to interpret any one verse in the Bible without reference to the whole. Proper interpretation must be based on text, context and greater context.
10. BONDING OR BONDAGE.
Cults often demand total commitment by their converts to an organizational involvement that entangles them in a complicated set of human restrictions.
a) The cult hopes to bring its followers to the place where they think of little else except their involvement with the movement and its human leader.
b) A common cry is that cults “brainwash” the new convert.
c) The Christian by comparison, is devoted to Jesus Christ Himself, not to any particular group or leader. Truth has its own magnetism, which produces loyalty.
11. LOTTERY LIES.
In the cults there is great emphasis on paying and to keep on paying.
a) Extravagant promises are made which imply that money contributed to the cause will bring numerous gifts, spiritual and material.
b) In the average cult tithing is but the beginning. Then comes the real pressure.
c) In Christianity salvation comes as an absolutely free gift. Romans 6:23 tells us that “the gift of God is eternal life”.
1. BOGUS BIBLES
a) The view that God has spoken in recorded words outside, or apart from, the Bible since He gave us the New Testament scriptures. This seems to be forbidden in Rev 22:18, 19
b) This “new” revelation often opposes the direct teaching of the Bible. Beware of anyone who says he has a special revelation from God. There is no special verbal revelation from God apart from the Bible.
2. SALVATION BY WORKS.
The teaching that eternal life depends on something we do and other than faith in the work of Christ on the cross
a) Salvation is therefore dependant on human responsibility.
b) The gospel is very clear that we are saved by grace alone (Eph 2:8, 9)
c) The message of the cults finally boils down to required obedience to a set of obligations and practices in order to obtain salvation.
3. UNCERTAIN HOPE
This refers to the view that we can never be sure, while we are in this world, that we have eternal life.
a) The issue of salvation is never settled.
b) The believing Christian CAN be very certain of salvation .(1 Peter 1:3-6, Eph 1:13, Heb 6:19, 1 John 5:13)
4. PSEUDO SAVIORS
This is the idea that a contemporary human being has been appointed by God to be a special saint, guru or messiah.
a) For example; Joseph Smith claimed that his teachings were the only true doctrines of the Christian church; Sun Myung Moon claims to be the second incarnation of Christ; Lord Maitreya claims to be the Christ of the New Age; even Charles Manson claimed to be the Christ.
b) The Bible shows that Jesus Christ is the only true messiah and the ONLY way to the Father (John 14:6)
5. CONFUSING DOCTRINE
The cults are characterized by an indefinite system of doctrine which often changes with every new wind that blows. The cults intend to confuse, not to clarify.
a) It is almost impossible to understand what a cultist believes about God, biblical inspiration, eternity and many other subjects.
b) larity of belief is one of the characteristics of true Christianity.
c) The cults try to lure people away from the truth (2 Tim 4:3, 4)
6. PROPHETIC PUTDOWNS
A cult leader will often say that his teachings are the only true ones and that all other religious systems are false. For example, Joseph Smith began Mormonism because an ‘angel’ told him that all Christian denominations at that time were false. In contrast to this denunciation by others, Christ even prayed for those who were crucifying him.
7. THE “GNOSIS” KNOWS.
In one way or another, each cult claims to have the ‘inside scoop’ on the truth. These ‘special discoveries’ are often shrouded with mystery and secret initiation rites, such as; A ‘vision’ on a mountain, a voice in a prayer tower, an angel coming to them with golden tablets and special glasses.
a) These things cannot be supported historically or scientifically.
b) In contrast with this, the truth of Christianity does not depend on private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships. Christianity can be supported through history, archaeology and science.
8. DIETY DENIAL
This term refers to a false view of the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ.
a) A cult will usually deny the true deity of Christ, His true humanity or the true union of the two natures in one person. For instance; Christian Science denies the existence of the physical. (therefore Christ could not have had a real body).
Jehovah’s Witnesses deny that Jesus is God.
b) The central truth of Christianity is related to the question “Who do you say the Christ is”? (Matt 22:42) Only the true Christian can answer this correctly. Christianity affirms the true deity and the true humanity of our Saviour.
9. CONTORTED CONTEXT.
This is the dangerous practice of paying attention to one verse or a passage of the Bible to the exclusion of the others. For example, Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, used Matthew 24:7 (nation will rise against nation) in order to claim that the beginning of WW 2 in 1914 marked the second coming of Christ, despite the lack of consistency with other prophecy in the New Testament. It is always dangerous to interpret any one verse in the Bible without reference to the whole. Proper interpretation must be based on text, context and greater context.
10. BONDING OR BONDAGE.
Cults often demand total commitment by their converts to an organizational involvement that entangles them in a complicated set of human restrictions.
a) The cult hopes to bring its followers to the place where they think of little else except their involvement with the movement and its human leader.
b) A common cry is that cults “brainwash” the new convert.
c) The Christian by comparison, is devoted to Jesus Christ Himself, not to any particular group or leader. Truth has its own magnetism, which produces loyalty.
11. LOTTERY LIES.
In the cults there is great emphasis on paying and to keep on paying.
a) Extravagant promises are made which imply that money contributed to the cause will bring numerous gifts, spiritual and material.
b) In the average cult tithing is but the beginning. Then comes the real pressure.
c) In Christianity salvation comes as an absolutely free gift. Romans 6:23 tells us that “the gift of God is eternal life”.
10-03-2004, 09:26 AM
#142
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From reading these new post since the lst time I read them (yesterday afternoon), there was a lot of information, it looks like a lot of tru personal feeling were expressed. That is good. That is very good.
One post I was reading awhile back was pertaining to the 144,000. There was some confusion of where the 144,000 would come from. The 144,000 is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
Ref:
Re 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
The reason that I say that is because if you take 12,000 and multiply it by 12 you get 144,000.
One post I was reading awhile back was pertaining to the 144,000. There was some confusion of where the 144,000 would come from. The 144,000 is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
Ref:
Re 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
The reason that I say that is because if you take 12,000 and multiply it by 12 you get 144,000.
10-03-2004, 10:01 AM
#143
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smiller: Why don't you ask him about the "Tithe"..i'm curious how heated THAT will get ...
...of course i don't agree with it myself..because whatever God has allowed you to earn on your job is YOURS..no church needs that money to make a fat gloating pastor rich so he can drive a mercedes.It's NOT about what you have in your heart either.I do agree we should help a less fortunate person if we see they need our help,but not 10-15% of our income every sunday morning 
...of course i don't agree with it myself..because whatever God has allowed you to earn on your job is YOURS..no church needs that money to make a fat gloating pastor rich so he can drive a mercedes.It's NOT about what you have in your heart either.I do agree we should help a less fortunate person if we see they need our help,but not 10-15% of our income every sunday morning
10-03-2004, 10:11 AM
#144
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smiller- I think you're stretching your definition of "intolerant" just a bit. Nobody who posted on this thread ever said that they were going to harm, shun, insult, or coerce people who don't believe as they do. What is intolerant about simply believing that your religion is the one true faith and other religions are false? I'm talking beliefs here, not actions. It's obviously intolerant to burn heretics, behead infidels, expel the Jews from your country, etc.
Just following your line of reasoning here - aren't you being just a wee bit intolerant of Joe N., Mexstan, bdramsey, et al? You say they're intolerant because they believe their faith is right and all others are wrong, by your own logic you are intolerant to say they are wrong in their belief.
Just following your line of reasoning here - aren't you being just a wee bit intolerant of Joe N., Mexstan, bdramsey, et al? You say they're intolerant because they believe their faith is right and all others are wrong, by your own logic you are intolerant to say they are wrong in their belief.
10-03-2004, 10:48 AM
#145
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I don’t necessarily believe anyone is being intolerant. I think we just feel passionate about our particular beliefs. Religion is one of those things that is very personal to people. So far I feel we have done a great job keeping cool and no one getting really offended. Sure there have been a few little attacks but that is to be expected with such a volatile subject. As of right now we are on the 10th page and the 143rd post. I can’t remember a post going this high. We should be proud of ourselves!
Keep up the good work guys and lets keep talking.
Keep up the good work guys and lets keep talking.
10-03-2004, 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by wannadiesel
smiller- I think you're stretching your definition of "intolerant" just a bit. Nobody who posted on this thread ever said that they were going to harm, shun, insult, or coerce people who don't believe as they do. What is intolerant about simply believing that your religion is the one true faith and other religions are false? I'm talking beliefs here, not actions. It's obviously intolerant to burn heretics, behead infidels, expel the Jews from your country, etc.
Just following your line of reasoning here - aren't you being just a wee bit intolerant of Joe N., Mexstan, bdramsey, et al? You say they're intolerant because they believe their faith is right and all others are wrong, by your own logic you are intolerant to say they are wrong in their belief.
smiller- I think you're stretching your definition of "intolerant" just a bit. Nobody who posted on this thread ever said that they were going to harm, shun, insult, or coerce people who don't believe as they do. What is intolerant about simply believing that your religion is the one true faith and other religions are false? I'm talking beliefs here, not actions. It's obviously intolerant to burn heretics, behead infidels, expel the Jews from your country, etc.
Just following your line of reasoning here - aren't you being just a wee bit intolerant of Joe N., Mexstan, bdramsey, et al? You say they're intolerant because they believe their faith is right and all others are wrong, by your own logic you are intolerant to say they are wrong in their belief.
Back to the real topic, still wondering about a couple of those bible references I quoted in my last post and how they fit into a word-for-word literal view of the bible.
10-03-2004, 11:38 AM
#147
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Originally posted by smiller
intolerant (în-tòl´er-ent) adjective
Not tolerant, especially:. a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
intolerant (în-tòl´er-ent) adjective
Not tolerant, especially:. a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
I don't see anybody (including you, smiller) posting being intolerant by this definition. I just don't see how you can tar the posters in this thread with the label "intolerant" going by the definition you provided. That's why I say you're stretching the definition. One man's beliefs cannot "interfere with" another's unless those beliefs are followed by some action.
10-03-2004, 12:55 PM
#148
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[In response to yet more stuff about the precise definition of intolerance]
Well, whatever. I guess I'm just trying to say that holding an 'I'm absolutetly right and you therefore must be absolutely wrong' belief system is not necesarily as benign as you imply, as that view by definition eliminates any potential for common understanding, and thus will ultimately lead only to conflict (as it has endlessly through the ages, and still continues to this day).
Since this type of absolutist belief system is so likely to lead to conflict and war, one might even suppose that the inspiration for such thoughts (in a member of any religion) may be the work of the Devil. One would think that God, on the other hand, would only want to promote harmony and understanding among men.
Well, whatever. I guess I'm just trying to say that holding an 'I'm absolutetly right and you therefore must be absolutely wrong' belief system is not necesarily as benign as you imply, as that view by definition eliminates any potential for common understanding, and thus will ultimately lead only to conflict (as it has endlessly through the ages, and still continues to this day).
Since this type of absolutist belief system is so likely to lead to conflict and war, one might even suppose that the inspiration for such thoughts (in a member of any religion) may be the work of the Devil. One would think that God, on the other hand, would only want to promote harmony and understanding among men.
10-03-2004, 01:13 PM
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okay, this has almost turned into who is going to get the last word type of arguement.
you are both right. i as i'm sure everyone else can see both sides.
lets get back to the topic.
quote form smiller:
Back to the real topic, still wondering about a couple of those bible references I quoted in my last post and how they fit into a word-for-word literal view of the bible
end quote
you are both right. i as i'm sure everyone else can see both sides.
lets get back to the topic.
quote form smiller:
Back to the real topic, still wondering about a couple of those bible references I quoted in my last post and how they fit into a word-for-word literal view of the bible
end quote
10-03-2004, 02:25 PM
#150
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
t-7 firefighter, specifically which Bible references are you refering to that you still need answers for?
TurbosAmoungUs, I am willing to try to give you some answers re tithing, but it will have to wait until later today or this evening. (heading out right now)
TurbosAmoungUs, I am willing to try to give you some answers re tithing, but it will have to wait until later today or this evening. (heading out right now)