t-15 firefighter

Unfortunately… but I sure don’t claim him and never will.

britt

Hoss

That's okay. You have that choice.

rowilson

I wonder if you or anyone you know actually knows someone from Iraq. Someone that was really there before the USA saved the Iraq people. It's sad that so many people think that just because it doesn't effect them personally they shouldn't get involved. I wonder if someone killed every single person you ever knew, went to school, with grew up with or was related to, who you would call to help? Would you be ranting a raving all over the television that there is a murderer loose and needs to be caught and dealt with accordingly? What if it happened and you were on the news crying and saying that your mom, dad, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents, neighbors, towns people we all dead all because they were from your home town of Puttzville? And the people told you that it was a shame that all the Puttz' were dead but sorry it didn't involve them. Who would you ask to help? No one cares all they were were a bunch of Puttz'. The worlds better off without them. You might actually be upset that no one cared wouldn't you? Well to answer my first question for you I DO. I know two people that were on both sides of that equation. I have a good friend that came to me one day crying because the scenario had just happened to his village. I couldn't believe it at first but somewhere buried in the news was the story of Saddam Hussein's henchmen army had just killed a village of Kurds. My friend warned me that this man was pure evil and that we would someday find out on our own about how he was worse than Hitler. I asked why he didnt' tell the news his story and he told me that he was afraid that one of Saddam's men would kill him. They are everywhere he said. Living here and learning from us. The other guy I knew that worked at the same place as my friend and I was an escapee of the Republican Gaurd. He was not very friendly and had a VERY bad temper. He kept to himself and was not friends with anyone. This is why my friend was afraid. Because of people like the other co-worker. I hope that you never need a friend to come and save you or your families life because someone says Puttz' don't deserve to live and that someone has the ***** to help you and your family even if you are a Puttz you and your families life is worth saving. On a side note all the soldiers fighting over there are volunteers. They pay for your ability to voice your opinion with THEIR lives.

Shovelhead

Just wanted to expand on that thought.
Those 1,500 and the thousands that went before them died so you could be free enough to have that choice.

t-15 firefighter

Yes we do. My wife works with a friend who is from Iraq (before the US “invasion”). In fact we are very good friends with their family and have gone out with them many times. Of course you wouldn’t know that. You automatically assume that we don’t.



I’m so glad you brought that up.

Here are a few statistics from Iraq:

Iraq, Shia rebellion in south (1991-92)
o War Annual 6: 40,000
o Ploughshares 2000 cites ...
§ Rebel commanders: 50,000
§ al-Hakim: 300,000
o 22 Feb. 1994 AP at Radwaniyeh prison camp
§ November 1993: up to 2,000 political executions
§ before September 1993: "hundreds"
§ October 1992: 200 in a single day


Now here are a few statistics from Hati:

Haiti (1957-86)
o Papa Doc, François Duvalier 1957-71
§ Encarta: 2,000 killed by 1967
§ LC [http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/httoc.html]: 30,000 k for political reasons 1957-71
o Duvalier Dynasty (1957-86):
§ 3,000 democides (Rummel)
§ 15,000 disappeared (Grenville)
§ 50,000 k (27 April 1986 Toronto Star)
§ 60,000 k (9 Dec. 1998 [London] Guardian)
§ 60,000 k (16 July 1986 L.A. Times)
§ Between 1981-87, 9,000 Haitian refugees were repatriated by US Coast Guard. US Embassy estimated that for every 1 returned, 1 drowned. (10 May 1987 St. Petersburg Times)


How about some statistics from Iran:

Iran (1979-)
o Islamic Republic
§ 8,000 executed, 1979-80 (Timeframe, P.Johnson)
§ 10,000 to 12,000 executed, 1984-88 (11 Dec. 1988, Toronto Star)
§ SIPRI 1988: 6,000 to 20,000 executed dissidents, 1979-87
§ Harff & Gurr: 10- 20,000 Mujahadeen, Kurds, Baha'is (1981-88)
§ 28 Jan. 1983 Christian Science Monitor: 20,000 k. during "past 18 months"
§ Bulloch & Morris, The Gulf War (1989): Autumn 1988, executions following Mujahedin uprising:
§ Mujah. claim 12,000 k, but this may include battle deaths in July.
§ Amnesty Int.: at least 1,000
§ authors: "true figure" closer to 5,000
§ Ploughshares 2000: >10,000 k. in Mujahadeen conflict since 1979
§ 21 June 1986 Washington Post cites the following
§ Amnesty International estimates 6,108 executions or more.
§ People's Mujaheddin of Iran accused regime of 50,000 executions
§ Rummel estimates 56,000 democides of all kinds, 1979-87


Nigeria? Sure… why not:

Nigeria (1990- )
o 4 July 1991 Financial Times (London):
§ 69 executed after failed coup.
§ 800 killed in Bauchi in fighting, Moslem/Chr. ("April", 1991)
o Dan Smith: 1,000 Ogonis killed in clashes with Andonis, 1993
o Ploughshares 2000: 3,000 total in religious conflict, incl. 2,000 in 2000.
o Religious riots in Kaduna, Feb. 2000: 2,000 k. (24 May 2000 AP)
o Religious riots in Kano, May 2004: 500-600 (mostly Xians) k. (13 May 2004 Reuters)
o Nigerian communal clashes: A govt. survey says that 53,787 killed 7 Sept. 2001-18 May 2004. (mostly Christian farmers vs. Muslim animal herders in the central Plateau state) (7 Oct. 2004 BBC)


Rwanda, Congo, Sierra Leone, the list goes on and on.

Who cries for these people? Don’t preach to me about the Puttz’s! 53,737 people were killed in one day in Nigeria. Why didn’t we “liberate” them????? Answer me that. Then you can preach to me about the Puttz’s. Answer me why we didn’t invade these other few listed countries for “liberation” then and only then can you preach to me. Oh yeah.... I forgot Rwanda didn't attack us on 9/11. What was I thinking. Oh wait.... Iraq didn't attack us either.
Huh?



If you want to equate Saddam to Hitler be my guest. I have no doubt that he was an evil man and a dictator. He was nowhere in the league of Hitler though. I’m pretty sure you would draw some criticism for even making that suggestion.


I have always supported the troops. Always will.

Iraq was the wrong war though and always will be. We went under the guise of WMD’s and everyone knew there wasn’t any. Even the President admitted that. Then we went under the guise of “liberation of the Iraqi people”. What about all of the other countries listed earlier? I guess you will have to wait your turn. Sorry.

Flame away my friends... Flame away.

Britt

ramlovingvet

The Americam People chose Mr Bush so I guess you just have to deal with it. and I support the Iraq policy 100% and would go back if they would let me. and like many here i just dont know someone who knows someone I have lost a friend there.

And the only reason Saddam was not as bad as Hitler is we stopped hime but I guess 600000 of his own people murdered was just a spat?

t-15 firefighter

sorry to hear about your friend.

yes you are right. the american people did choose bush this time. i'm personally glad there won't be a next time but that's neither here nor there.



compaired to the other countries that i listed and others unlisted, yes it was smaller. in fact, iraq ranks 33rd. it would seem to me if we are "truly" going in as a "liberation" mission then it would make sense to invade the country that is doing the most amount of atrocities. but thats just me.

if you think that saddam was ever going to be as bad as hitler then i personally feel you are seriously mistaken.

just my opinion though.

britt

dieselnewbie

Who cries for all the other oppressed in the world?

We all do but they don't live in an area of the world that's vital to our national interests, and they don't live in an area that bred the kind of people who pulled off the Sept. 11 attacks.

Bush is bringing democracy to that area of the world and it's now spreading like wildfire. All the Michael Moore nitwits of the world should take a lesson.

Democracies are friendly and the more of them there are the better off the world will be, including the countries you mentioned.

Looks like the Texan George W. Bush, the 43rd President of the United States, called stupid and a warmongering murderer by the self-absorbed-obscenely-rich-cheese-eating wine-sipping left-wing elitist knowitalls, was right all along, and they were dead wrong.

Too bad he wasn't at the helm during the '90s. Sept 11 would never have happened.

He will go down as a great President.

You know it's funny, John Kerry, who is and always has been a shameless opportunist (marrying more than once into multi-hundred-million-dollar families when he was broke) would have loved to win last November.

I bet he knew GW was doing the right thing all along and wanted to step into his shoes just when the effort started to pay off.

That loss must be killing him now.

LOL!

Shovelhead

This thread went from Robert Blake's verdict to Prez Bush's foreign policy.

THAT's a heckuva leap......unless someone is suggesting that Blake was hiding the WMDs.

t-15 firefighter

Oh but wait. None of the hijackers were from Iraq. Judging by your reasoning, shouldn’t we be attacking Saudi Arabia? I mean that’s where most of the hijackers came from and Saudi Arabia is literally in the area that bred the kind of people who pulled off the Sept. 11th attacks.

Remember now... we are now under the guise of a "liberation" mission. No longer WMD's or Sept. 11th attacks. That is what your President said publicly.



Really? By forcing democracy down people’s throats is making it spread like wildfire? I tell you what, mark this thread and come back a year from now and lets see how much democracy has spread.


See above quote.



I seriously doubt that but history will eventually tell.

Britt




P.S. Sorry Robert Blake. Didn't mean to short you. I don't believe you had WMD's either.

George&cheryl

You forgot the famous words


IF IT DOESN'T FIT YOU MUST ACQUIT

dieselnewbie

Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, Egypt and all the other arab states all have citizens who belong to Bin Laden's group. All those countries have repressive governments.

Can you hear me now?

The reason 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi was Bin Laden wanted the U.S. to pull it's support from Saudi Arabia immediatly, because he is also a Saudi.

He wanted to overthrow Saudi Arabia because it's repressive/vunerable/easy prey.

And Bush isn't forcing Democracy down anyone's throats.

Did you happen to notice 8.5 million Iraqi's going to the polls all under the threat of death?

The only ones forcing democracy were the Iraqi people forcing it down the throats of the Bathists and other bad guys in Iraq.

It's going to be a long time before the Left Wing recovers from this one.

t-15 firefighter

Can I hear you now? Nope. You still didn’t answer my question. So since most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia we need to attack Iraq. Hmmm…. Okay. Bin Laden was going to over-throw Saudi Arabia…? right.

I hope Mexico never attacks us or we'll be forced to invade Canada. That was a joke so don’t get too offended.

I have no problem with the repressive government theories but we’re supposed to attack anyone with a repressive government that didn’t attack us? Yeah….




I doubt that. The American people will eventually get tired of this war. Remember Vietnam?

I’ll quit when you do.

Britt

Shovelhead

Last chance to either get back on topic or it goes away.

phox_mulder

Hey, I was just going to say that.

2 locks must be better than one, right?


phox