Anyone else watching the China/Taiwan situation?
03-15-2005, 10:01 PM
#16
Originally posted by TireHauler04
Why don't we just them duke it out themselves, rather than risk more innocent U.S. Military lives? If it gets to the point where we NEED to step in, then sure.
..if nukes get involved then we might as well call it WW3 because then everyone's hand will be in the cookie jar.
Why don't we just them duke it out themselves, rather than risk more innocent U.S. Military lives? If it gets to the point where we NEED to step in, then sure.
..if nukes get involved then we might as well call it WW3 because then everyone's hand will be in the cookie jar.
We profit greatly off of trade with Taiwan, and we don't want China to get any more powerful. By using Taiwan as an excuse we get to lay the smack down on China, gain an ally, save our future economy and come off looking like the good guy. No loose no loose... (From a political standpoint at least. Not necessarily a humanitarian one.)
03-16-2005, 04:05 AM
#17
Registered User
I think that the use of massive nuclear force on anybody on the same hemisphere (north-south) is a form of suicide. For example the USA could nuke china, but would get the fallout rather soon. So now you wont be able to grow food- if you want to nuke someone you will have to stock up some tins of food for only some centuries if you're not doing it too heavily or some millenia if the situation gets out of hands and the one nuked does use his nukes too- even if eg China would just blow them up on their own territory, the USA and Europe, Russia and India (and some other places too) would be uninhabitable for several centuries.
These facts are well known, as is the nuclear winter theory, and therefore somebody wanting to use nukes is IMHO just a short-sighted more explosive version of the guy who's using a dynamite belt in the bus...
Just my 2c
AlpineRAM
These facts are well known, as is the nuclear winter theory, and therefore somebody wanting to use nukes is IMHO just a short-sighted more explosive version of the guy who's using a dynamite belt in the bus...
Just my 2c
AlpineRAM
03-16-2005, 08:40 AM
#18
Registered User
Wow! I do not care for China and do disagree with many if not most of what they do and I certainly condem communism. That being said China may not have the most sophisticated military but make no mistake about them being able to do some major damage. Lets not forget Taiwan is part of China. Lets assume the state of Florida wanted to seceed and they got another powerful even democratic country to back them like England. Do you think the US would just say oh well ok go ahead, good luck with your new country. I seriously doubt that GW is in any rush to go to war with China and would do most anything to keep it from happening because it will be a lose lose situation for all involved even if we were to win in the end ( and I dont doubt that we could, but at what cost (and there would be many, and would it be worth it). It would be a long protracted endevour that makes Iraq seem like a petty skirmish. As Alpine brought up Nukes are not good for anybody. And I have to respectfully disagree with the use of nukes. Anybody who feels first strike nukes or actually any except for retailitory are the answer has not fully thought through the outcome and consequences of not only the country but the world. The preceeding is just my humble opinion.
Below are a few links of interest about China that I found by just putting chinese military in the address bar.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/china/EC08Ad03.html
http://taiwansecurity.org/News/2003/WSJ-050703.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ina/index.html
http://www.nti.org/db/china/wdepdat.htm
http://www.cfr.org/pdf/China_TF.pdf
Below are a few links of interest about China that I found by just putting chinese military in the address bar.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/china/EC08Ad03.html
http://taiwansecurity.org/News/2003/WSJ-050703.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ina/index.html
http://www.nti.org/db/china/wdepdat.htm
http://www.cfr.org/pdf/China_TF.pdf
03-16-2005, 11:25 AM
#19
DTR Advertiser
Alpine, the use of nukes gets thrown around in conversation very frequently when talking about war with any country the US may face/go to war with. Its not much more than "talk".
Dont take it too seriously. Its a cultural thing. Lots of noise and barking but no bites.
Europe and the US can both make money in China in the coming decades. I suspect the economic benefit will be very good.
In the end though, the stress on the natural resources of oil will become a huge battle ground for all nations. With Chinas needs being higher with the way they are growing now. The Chinese are buying cars, building infrastructure and installing gas pumps right and left. It is only a matter of time before the oil crunch really puts the hurt on supply like we have never seen.
Its time for some Euro and US inventions for energy alternatives.
Don~
Dont take it too seriously. Its a cultural thing. Lots of noise and barking but no bites.
Europe and the US can both make money in China in the coming decades. I suspect the economic benefit will be very good.
In the end though, the stress on the natural resources of oil will become a huge battle ground for all nations. With Chinas needs being higher with the way they are growing now. The Chinese are buying cars, building infrastructure and installing gas pumps right and left. It is only a matter of time before the oil crunch really puts the hurt on supply like we have never seen.
Its time for some Euro and US inventions for energy alternatives.
Don~
03-16-2005, 05:04 PM
#20
All it's time for is biofuel... Hemp and switch grass. (And enough imperialism to grow it.)
And nobody is going to profit off of China unless they have a real capitalist currency system, where a dollar is actually worth a dollar.
And "nuke" is kind of a cultural thing. But don't you know that the biggest nukes vaporize the fallout before it can spread, not like those nasty little ones that we nuked Japan with...
And nobody is going to profit off of China unless they have a real capitalist currency system, where a dollar is actually worth a dollar.
And "nuke" is kind of a cultural thing. But don't you know that the biggest nukes vaporize the fallout before it can spread, not like those nasty little ones that we nuked Japan with...
03-16-2005, 05:46 PM
#21
Registered User
Well I know that "nuke'em" is something cultural. I do think that this is one of the problems. Some folks over here would take it literally and be very afraid and think of the US citizens as stupid boys playing with much too big firecrackers. I do think that a lot of cash can be made in china- some of my friends work there and they do rather well. Te problems with the currency do not really exist for them since they now can get paid in Euros or US$.
Begle1: The vaporizing of the fallout before it can spread is just leading to the radioactive substances being of a smaller particle size and higher up in the athmosphere. So the local fallout won't be that bad, there's no definite fallout zone as with the small and dirty old bombs. But if you regard it on a bigger scale like using 60-200 big nukes the higher levels of the athmosphere would be very well saturated with radioactive material that will be distributed all across the northern hemisphere within some years and the material will still fall out. (Data for that is based on the results of the Krakatoa vulcanic event that distributed lots of particulates in the athmosphere.)
One of the big problems I see in the economic growth in China is that the consumption of energy will rise. Fuel for the growth will be oil, coal and fissible material. And the supplies are limited. And as long as China has the same wishes (I mean the individuals living in China) as the USA, having a big car, air condition, central heating etc the per head cosumption will catch up.. Bio energy is only one part of the solution. A country like Austria could not grow enough rapeseed to make enough biodiesel to be self sustaining. So the only solution IMHO will be to try to reduce energy consumption. The capitalist way to do it will be high demand- high price- individual effort to use less.
In Mali and Burkina Faso, Africa, the better development organisations do try to find ways to get the standard of living up to an equivalent of the european standard, but using clever techniques to achieve the goal with minimum energy consumption. And on the other hand they look into making alternative energy. (I've been in Mali and in one hotel that had been part of the development aid process you had electrical heating of the water for the shower. - The newer ones were using mainly solar energy to heat and cool whereever necessary. - To me it was bizarre to take a shower and see the electric water heateer while the day temperature was over 120F !!)
AlpineRAM
Begle1: The vaporizing of the fallout before it can spread is just leading to the radioactive substances being of a smaller particle size and higher up in the athmosphere. So the local fallout won't be that bad, there's no definite fallout zone as with the small and dirty old bombs. But if you regard it on a bigger scale like using 60-200 big nukes the higher levels of the athmosphere would be very well saturated with radioactive material that will be distributed all across the northern hemisphere within some years and the material will still fall out. (Data for that is based on the results of the Krakatoa vulcanic event that distributed lots of particulates in the athmosphere.)
One of the big problems I see in the economic growth in China is that the consumption of energy will rise. Fuel for the growth will be oil, coal and fissible material. And the supplies are limited. And as long as China has the same wishes (I mean the individuals living in China) as the USA, having a big car, air condition, central heating etc the per head cosumption will catch up.. Bio energy is only one part of the solution. A country like Austria could not grow enough rapeseed to make enough biodiesel to be self sustaining. So the only solution IMHO will be to try to reduce energy consumption. The capitalist way to do it will be high demand- high price- individual effort to use less.
In Mali and Burkina Faso, Africa, the better development organisations do try to find ways to get the standard of living up to an equivalent of the european standard, but using clever techniques to achieve the goal with minimum energy consumption. And on the other hand they look into making alternative energy. (I've been in Mali and in one hotel that had been part of the development aid process you had electrical heating of the water for the shower. - The newer ones were using mainly solar energy to heat and cool whereever necessary. - To me it was bizarre to take a shower and see the electric water heateer while the day temperature was over 120F !!)
AlpineRAM
03-16-2005, 11:19 PM
#22
I don't know about the fallout vaporization thing... I made that up a few years ago to justify nuking somebody. I forget who exactly; I think it was Gandhi.
I don't think it really works that way...
And there is a ton of money to be had by pouring money into China. But their self-imposed poverty level allows their products to be way cheaper than anybody elses.
Now the level of income does seem to be increasing, so the Chinese might work out their problem from the bottem up without a major revolution (which would be a major disappointment...). But if the Chinese continue living with their funky currency, it means that other countries (i.e. US) will have to drop our quality of living to their standards. This is economically acceptable, absolutely. Actually, they have full right to force us to drop our quality of living.
But will we accept the economical pressure of China changing our life styles? The American way of life will be protected, and the "human hive" mentality that exists in China at the moment needs to be protected from.
Preferrably "protected from" with nukes...
And I do believe very sincerely that a new agricultural revolution will be the source of fuels starting in a few decades; by the end of my lifetime at least. But the Biofuel Revolution will need cropland to be successful; we are going to need a whole lot of rapeseed and hemp. The way I see it, unless we get some super-algae or absolutely genious Jethro Tull-types, the necessary cropland is going to
have to be found in "developing" countries. And that is why I see a new age of imperialism comng; as people realize that the only way to make enough biofuel is to capitalize third world (and fourth world) countries.
I don't think it really works that way...
And there is a ton of money to be had by pouring money into China. But their self-imposed poverty level allows their products to be way cheaper than anybody elses.
Now the level of income does seem to be increasing, so the Chinese might work out their problem from the bottem up without a major revolution (which would be a major disappointment...). But if the Chinese continue living with their funky currency, it means that other countries (i.e. US) will have to drop our quality of living to their standards. This is economically acceptable, absolutely. Actually, they have full right to force us to drop our quality of living.
But will we accept the economical pressure of China changing our life styles? The American way of life will be protected, and the "human hive" mentality that exists in China at the moment needs to be protected from.
Preferrably "protected from" with nukes...
And I do believe very sincerely that a new agricultural revolution will be the source of fuels starting in a few decades; by the end of my lifetime at least. But the Biofuel Revolution will need cropland to be successful; we are going to need a whole lot of rapeseed and hemp. The way I see it, unless we get some super-algae or absolutely genious Jethro Tull-types, the necessary cropland is going to
have to be found in "developing" countries. And that is why I see a new age of imperialism comng; as people realize that the only way to make enough biofuel is to capitalize third world (and fourth world) countries.
03-17-2005, 12:36 AM
#23
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What many forget is we already have a treaty with Taiwan. The Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, signed under Carter, leaves the door open for military reprisals against China should they start lobbing missiles at Taiwan.
And regardless of what the pundits may state, we'd definitely back Taiwan.
And regardless of what the pundits may state, we'd definitely back Taiwan.
03-17-2005, 04:28 AM
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Guys here is just a thought. We let China have Taiwan and China deals with North Korea for us??????????? It could happen because like some have already said we don't want war with China and we need to fix the N. Korea thing?
03-17-2005, 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by localnet
Barry,
Where is China getting the bulk of their oil? Iran is holding all of the cards. Think about it.
Mike
Barry,
Where is China getting the bulk of their oil? Iran is holding all of the cards. Think about it.
Mike
03-17-2005, 10:29 AM
#28
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I believe China tries to get oil from closer places. Russia for example. The scenerios play out that we can cut off Chinas oil supply rather easily should things get out of hand with them. The shipping lanes between them and the middle east are to long for them to get it there before we find them.
Chinas Navy is a joke.
Did anyone read the articles during the afghan mess about the caspian sea oil deposits. One of the first thngs we did was to begin to check the caspian sea for large oil deposits after the hunt for osama and the taliban started. We were under the impression there were large deposits there off their coast. It turned out to be a very small deposit and not the mother load hoped for. China was in there too, using some very nasty negotiating techniques to try and deal their way into the spoils. Before we ever stuck the first straw into the ground.
They are now doing the same thing in Canada. Approaching the Canucks to get the oil. No harm, no foul. It does give us an idea of how tough the oil game will be in the near future as oil demand goes up for them and the rest of the developing countries. Not like we dont use wayyy tooo much ourselves.
Don~
Chinas Navy is a joke.
Did anyone read the articles during the afghan mess about the caspian sea oil deposits. One of the first thngs we did was to begin to check the caspian sea for large oil deposits after the hunt for osama and the taliban started. We were under the impression there were large deposits there off their coast. It turned out to be a very small deposit and not the mother load hoped for. China was in there too, using some very nasty negotiating techniques to try and deal their way into the spoils. Before we ever stuck the first straw into the ground.
They are now doing the same thing in Canada. Approaching the Canucks to get the oil. No harm, no foul. It does give us an idea of how tough the oil game will be in the near future as oil demand goes up for them and the rest of the developing countries. Not like we dont use wayyy tooo much ourselves.
Don~
03-17-2005, 05:41 PM
#30
Registered User
"China's Navy is a joke."
No joke, they're building a/c carriers twice the size of ours. They're sub force is second only to our's in capacity and size. They are a formidable force. They wouldn't lose any sleep if half their Army got wiped, because they have a billion more to take their place!
According to us, Formosa, which became Taiwan is another independent country. China says it's theirs. China is bigger and mightier than little ole us. China can do whatever it wants. Their territory, their problem. Taiwan does generate a whole lot of US Dollars for their economy.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this.
No joke, they're building a/c carriers twice the size of ours. They're sub force is second only to our's in capacity and size. They are a formidable force. They wouldn't lose any sleep if half their Army got wiped, because they have a billion more to take their place!
According to us, Formosa, which became Taiwan is another independent country. China says it's theirs. China is bigger and mightier than little ole us. China can do whatever it wants. Their territory, their problem. Taiwan does generate a whole lot of US Dollars for their economy.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this.