Any plumbers/drainage experts? need help
#1
Thread Starter
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 1
From: Lyndon KS
Any plumbers/drainage experts? need help
I am having an issue with water coming up into the basement of my home, and need some info and advise.
First, some history on the house itself. The original house was built around 1899-1900 per the county records, and we have met the grand-daughter of the guy who built it, she was born in it and lived here for 20 years, she gave us a lot of history on her family and the house..
The original house stood on a field stone foundation over a crawl space and had a small root cellar under a small part of it, also hand laid field stone.
At some point in the 50's, the basement was dug out and the basement walls were re-built with concrete cinder block, about 1/4 of the house was left on the stone foundation walls. An 8 foot round, 20 foot deep cistern is alongside part of the cinder-block foundation wall on one side of the house.
In the late 70's, an addition was built on, the basement expanded, and the addition was built on a poured concrete foundation.
A floor drain was installed in the "new" part of the basement, connected to the drain tile on the exterior side of the foundation wall.
I am of the opinion that there is probably no drainage around the old stone foundation or cinder block areas, but that a drain tile was installed along the poured areas of the foundation.
We have been here 4 years and never had any major issues until a couple weeks ago when we had 4 days of rain/snow after 2 major snow storms a week apart each.
I went down and found water coming up through the floor drain... not seeping, but bubbling up like a fountain, 2-3 inches high!
I plugged the drain and we pumped out the basement, to find water continued to seep in between the slab and the foundation walls..this continued for about a week before finally drying out yesterday.
We have had 2 years of severe drought and dry weather, and although we watered the foundation walls weekly, I figured the drain tile had settled and broken.
I had a plumber come out and snake the drain tile through a window well drain, he found it looked ok, but then was blocked with a rock and clay. He scoped it and located the blockage for me and left..
The blockage was were the poured foundation met the old stone foundation, at the old cellar door entrance.
I hand-dug down to the tile and discovered that there was no break in the pipe, the pipe simply ends there... no plug, no drain, it just stops... and the back-fill is thick grey clay, that allows almost NO water to pass through it.
I currently have the end of the pipe exposed, and if I run a garden hose down the window well drain, water slowly comes out the pipe..but it seems to me that it flows out slower than I would have expected..
My question is, how fast should this be flowing, and is it normal for the pipe to just stop with out being day-lighted or going to a sump?
I am trying to decide if I need to simply connect to the end of it and day-light it, or have the whole thing replaced. there is a day-light drain a few inches lower than the drain tile that I could easily tie into , just means a few more days digging..
The pipe is 6 inch clay pipe, with no gravel bed or anything around it, and only runs for a total of 80 feet, around two walls of the foundation.
The estimate to replace it is not too bad, but I dont want to destroy THE BOSS's flower beds if I dont have to..
i have pics of the whole mess posted here:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ba...#ixzz3ODEZkc8A
First, some history on the house itself. The original house was built around 1899-1900 per the county records, and we have met the grand-daughter of the guy who built it, she was born in it and lived here for 20 years, she gave us a lot of history on her family and the house..
The original house stood on a field stone foundation over a crawl space and had a small root cellar under a small part of it, also hand laid field stone.
At some point in the 50's, the basement was dug out and the basement walls were re-built with concrete cinder block, about 1/4 of the house was left on the stone foundation walls. An 8 foot round, 20 foot deep cistern is alongside part of the cinder-block foundation wall on one side of the house.
In the late 70's, an addition was built on, the basement expanded, and the addition was built on a poured concrete foundation.
A floor drain was installed in the "new" part of the basement, connected to the drain tile on the exterior side of the foundation wall.
I am of the opinion that there is probably no drainage around the old stone foundation or cinder block areas, but that a drain tile was installed along the poured areas of the foundation.
We have been here 4 years and never had any major issues until a couple weeks ago when we had 4 days of rain/snow after 2 major snow storms a week apart each.
I went down and found water coming up through the floor drain... not seeping, but bubbling up like a fountain, 2-3 inches high!
I plugged the drain and we pumped out the basement, to find water continued to seep in between the slab and the foundation walls..this continued for about a week before finally drying out yesterday.
We have had 2 years of severe drought and dry weather, and although we watered the foundation walls weekly, I figured the drain tile had settled and broken.
I had a plumber come out and snake the drain tile through a window well drain, he found it looked ok, but then was blocked with a rock and clay. He scoped it and located the blockage for me and left..
The blockage was were the poured foundation met the old stone foundation, at the old cellar door entrance.
I hand-dug down to the tile and discovered that there was no break in the pipe, the pipe simply ends there... no plug, no drain, it just stops... and the back-fill is thick grey clay, that allows almost NO water to pass through it.
I currently have the end of the pipe exposed, and if I run a garden hose down the window well drain, water slowly comes out the pipe..but it seems to me that it flows out slower than I would have expected..
My question is, how fast should this be flowing, and is it normal for the pipe to just stop with out being day-lighted or going to a sump?
I am trying to decide if I need to simply connect to the end of it and day-light it, or have the whole thing replaced. there is a day-light drain a few inches lower than the drain tile that I could easily tie into , just means a few more days digging..
The pipe is 6 inch clay pipe, with no gravel bed or anything around it, and only runs for a total of 80 feet, around two walls of the foundation.
The estimate to replace it is not too bad, but I dont want to destroy THE BOSS's flower beds if I dont have to..
i have pics of the whole mess posted here:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ba...#ixzz3ODEZkc8A
#2
Maybe I'm missing something, but why don't you just tie into the pipe where it ends and run it until it comes out the side of the hill your house seems to sit up on?
For food and fuel I'll come out with the JCB and do it for you!
For food and fuel I'll come out with the JCB and do it for you!
#3
Drain is collapsed/plugged up...water should eventually run out as fast as going in.
I never skimped on drainage when I was a homebuillder, it went in once and right. If the owner didn't agree to pay for the extra cost it was agreed to in writing that it was not built according to my specifications and I would instal the "standard"...
My option was solid pipe and perf pipe where called for, glued and screwed, on a bed of gravel, filter fabric, with 1 ft min of clear drain rock above, another layer of fabric and back filled with clean, drainable soil, not clay.....and the walls were waterproofed with an asphaltic coating. To protect the coating from damage, it used to be cheap to line it with 1/4" drywall while backfilling, but that is usually unnecessary.
I never skimped on drainage when I was a homebuillder, it went in once and right. If the owner didn't agree to pay for the extra cost it was agreed to in writing that it was not built according to my specifications and I would instal the "standard"...
My option was solid pipe and perf pipe where called for, glued and screwed, on a bed of gravel, filter fabric, with 1 ft min of clear drain rock above, another layer of fabric and back filled with clean, drainable soil, not clay.....and the walls were waterproofed with an asphaltic coating. To protect the coating from damage, it used to be cheap to line it with 1/4" drywall while backfilling, but that is usually unnecessary.
#4
Thread Starter
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 1
From: Lyndon KS
There is an existing drain pipe about 2 foot away from where that ends, but I have to break out more concrete to get to it, I'd do that and tie into it first..
#5
LOL.. thats one option Scott, but it means digging out THE BOSS's rose bushes.. and means ME digging up more of that **** clay.. I'll be having Canuck Scotty's shoulder surgery myself if I have to do that, just the pit I dig already put me down for two days..
There is an existing drain pipe about 2 foot away from where that ends, but I have to break out more concrete to get to it, I'd do that and tie into it first..
There is an existing drain pipe about 2 foot away from where that ends, but I have to break out more concrete to get to it, I'd do that and tie into it first..
Trending Topics
#8
Thread Starter
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 1
From: Lyndon KS
IF I have to replace the whole thing, Im gonna dig out a few inches lower than the footing, fill with washed gravel over landscape fabric, lay in perforated 6" PVC, cover it with at least another foot of washed rock, wrap the fabric over the top and then backfill with black dirt back up to grade, run it all out a day-light drain through the retaining wall behind the house.. and probably doing it right would mean re-coating the foundation with tar while Im down there
but I realy DONT wanna have to do all that if I dont have to..
$$$$$$$$$
but I realy DONT wanna have to do all that if I dont have to..
$$$$$$$$$
#9
Administrator / Free Time Specialist
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,707
Likes: 14
From: Birmingham, Alabama
Just mentioning this, one thing you don't normally do is tie floor drains together with foundation drains. They need to be run separately so one doesn't back up into the other. Water coming in between the top of the slab and the bottom of the wall indicates the possibility of 2 things. First there has been a failure of the waterproofing, assuming there ever was any, at the base of the wall. Second, the foundation drain is stopped up. Scott is correct about digging up the foundation drains and extending them so they gravity drain from the house. That's the way it's done. The floor drain can be extended with schedule 40 PVC. To join the clay to PVC you use a coupling called a Fernco. It's rubber, slips over the ends of the pipe and uses included worm clamps. Make sure the person at the supply house knows you're connecting clay to Schedule 40 PVC. One other thing to note, screw the flower beds. If you get a butt load of black mold you'll wish you had never considered saving the beds. Find a landscaper, or landscape supplier or big box store and see if the have some of the cheap plastic pots that plants and small trees come in. Transplant the roses and such, put the in the shade and lightly water every day. When you put everything back, mix one part peat moss, one part sand and two parts decent topsoil and replant the roses with a sprinkling of rose food in the bottom of the hole.
#10
Just mentioning this, one thing you don't normally do is tie floor drains together with foundation drains. They need to be run separately so one doesn't back up into the other. Water coming in between the top of the slab and the bottom of the wall indicates the possibility of 2 things. First there has been a failure of the waterproofing, assuming there ever was any, at the base of the wall. Second, the foundation drain is stopped up. Scott is correct about digging up the foundation drains and extending them so they gravity drain from the house. That's the way it's done. The floor drain can be extended with schedule 40 PVC. To join the clay to PVC you use a coupling called a Fernco. It's rubber, slips over the ends of the pipe and uses included worm clamps. Make sure the person at the supply house knows you're connecting clay to Schedule 40 PVC. One other thing to note, screw the flower beds. If you get a butt load of black mold you'll wish you had never considered saving the beds. Find a landscaper, or landscape supplier or big box store and see if the have some of the cheap plastic pots that plants and small trees come in. Transplant the roses and such, put the in the shade and lightly water every day. When you put everything back, mix one part peat moss, one part sand and two parts decent topsoil and replant the roses with a sprinkling of rose food in the bottom of the hole.
#11
Administrator ........ DTR's puttin fires out and workin on big trucks admin
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,013
Likes: 3
IF I have to replace the whole thing, Im gonna dig out a few inches lower than the footing, fill with washed gravel over landscape fabric, lay in perforated 6" PVC, cover it with at least another foot of washed rock, wrap the fabric over the top and then backfill with black dirt back up to grade, run it all out a day-light drain through the retaining wall behind the house.. and probably doing it right would mean re-coating the foundation with tar while Im down there
but I realy DONT wanna have to do all that if I dont have to..
$$$$$$$$$
but I realy DONT wanna have to do all that if I dont have to..
$$$$$$$$$
This is exactly what I had to do to my house Chris. It completely fixed the problem.
#12
Make sure you put the holes down on the perf. I have seen so many around here with the holes at the top of the pipe! Usually the printing on the PVC goes at 12 o'clock, perfectly aligning the holes to let the water run away...
You probably knew that, but just in case....
You probably knew that, but just in case....
#13
Thread Starter
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 1
From: Lyndon KS
Spent most this last week tearing out the paneling and studs from teh basement walls and hauling it off, it appears now that this has happened before, but probably never this badly.. we dontgo into the basement that often, so it could have got wet and dryed out without us noticing it.
And Diane says if your serious, she can order a couple pizza's easy enough...
Make sure you put the holes down on the perf. I have seen so many around here with the holes at the top of the pipe! Usually the printing on the PVC goes at 12 o'clock, perfectly aligning the holes to let the water run away...
You probably knew that, but just in case....
You probably knew that, but just in case....
Got a quote from a local excavator to do the whole job for $500 including materials... way less than i expected, low enough to make me suspect/wonder..
Think I am gonna have him do the digging, but lay the pipe and backfill myself...
Also, had a contractor tell me today that I SHOULD back-fill with the clay, his reasoning being that the water will "run off " the top , allowing less to get to the drain tile.. cover the clay with a couple feet of top-soil but leave it clay from the tile up..BUT, while he has built many houses, he isnt a plumber/excavator......... what yall think?
#14
The holes are at about 5 and 7 o'clock. The small channel at 6 o'clock takes the water away nicely. If you put the holes up at 11 and 1 o'clock, you get 3 1/2 inches of water depth before it will get into the pipe.
You just need a pathway for water to evacuate, if a 4 inch pipe is running full, you got bigger problems...
If I dig down against my backyard wall the clay dries out about a foot down, most of the water is standing or runs off/evaporates.
I can see his feeling about this, your water may be coming thru a fissure in the soil and finding its way into the path of least resistance, which is your basement.
You just need a pathway for water to evacuate, if a 4 inch pipe is running full, you got bigger problems...
If I dig down against my backyard wall the clay dries out about a foot down, most of the water is standing or runs off/evaporates.
I can see his feeling about this, your water may be coming thru a fissure in the soil and finding its way into the path of least resistance, which is your basement.