Hoss

As a deacon over transportation at my church, I was recently tasked with reviewing some startling and scary information on 15 passenger vans and how dangerous they are. Some of the articles I've read are found below:

http://www.safetyforum.com/passengervans/

http://www.citizen.org/autosafety/passengervan/

http://www.vanangels.org/index2.html

In my research, I have found nothing GOOD about these vans. I thought I'd share the links above as a warning to anyone who owns or drives one.

From what I've been able to gather, when loaded, these things are death traps. If you own or drive one or if you attend a church or are part of another organization that uses them, please take a few minutes to read some of the information found in the links above. It could save lives.

SBishop

Hoss,

I have read several years ago that these types of vans were not able to legally be used for passenger(for hire) transportation, and that there was a sticker on the vans somewhere that said that.

Hoss

I don't know about that, but I do know that there are all kinds of loopholes that let these vans be used even in cases where they're not supposed to be.

For instance, it is illegal for a school to buy a new 15 passenger van to transport children in secondary school or above. However, nothing prevents them from buying used vans for transporting the same.

What makes them so dangerous is not only their extremely high tendency to roll over during emergency evasive manuevers, but also the fact that the offer VERY little protection to passengers when they DO roll over. All of the safety standards that school buses and such have for passenger protection do not apply to 15 passenger vans.

Add to that the fact that you do not have to have a CDL to drive them and you often times get inexperienced drivers driving a very top heavy, dangerous vehicle full of people with basically no protection in the event that they are involved in an accident.

The thing is, both Ford and General Motors KNOW how dangerous they are. They could make them safer by installing dual rear wheels for as little as $135 per vehicle...but they refuse to do it. Dodge discontinued them in 2002, which is good, but there are still many vans from all three makers on the roads that are nothing more than accidents waiting to happen.

AlpineRAM

Over here each and every vehicle must pass the so called "elk-test" which is basically an evasive maneuvre at a certain speed. The vehicle must not tilt or slide without stabilizing itself.
What I found when working on vehicles like these that were imported to europe was that most of them had inadequate rear shocks. (front ones were marginal too in most cases)
We went to install sway bars and stiffer shocks (esp. rebound damp. rate) and those vehicles would pass the test fully manned. (Naturally tire pressure was a key factor)
On most of the vehicles I saw the tires weren't even rated for the intended weight. Add underinflation to it and you have a time bomb.
I don't know how much stiffer shocks would be in the US, but over here they are less than 200US$ installed... and the right tires and proper inflation are easily checked and maintained for almost nothing at all.

AlpineRAM

Haulin_in_Dixie

Hoss this mess was created by the CDL laws being enacted. Before that used school busses were used for church transportation. But after the new laws, it took a CDL with passenger qualifaction to drive one. So the churches went to vans, less than 16 passengers which need no CDL.

As has been mentioned, the vans are generally used and no longer have the proper tires on them. It is a good thread, and also a situation with no real cure. The stricter the laws become, which probably are better for the majority, the more fallout there becomes in areas that just don't fit.

Dual wheels were mentioned, that would increase the weight capacity where the vehicles would not fit the purpose. These vehicles are not passenger vehicles, but cargo vans converted.

I would guess the best that a church can do is use a very safe driver and Hoss, you problably are that.

Hoss

Alpine, they have the same type of testing over here, but certain types of vehicles are not required to be tested. These vans, just like our trucks, are one of those types.

natstayl

Hoss, You're right and to their credit our local GM, Ford and Dodge dealers all refused to price-out our church a 12 or a 15 passenger van 3 years ago citing a document from the NHTSA. There's also the issue of fuel tanks along the outside of frame rails and no roof reinforcement in addition to their roll-over propensity and what I think is worse, no way for larger children to climb over the rear seat to escape through the rear doors incase the side door was blocked.
Our church bought a 24 passenger gasoline powered bus instead and mandated our existing 15 passenger van no longer be used to transport children.
Off the subject a little, but I remember a year or so back, school employees somewhere were moving busses thru a flooded parking lot. One was an empty 15 passenger Dodge van being driven between two school buses. The buses made it without difficulty but the rear of the van floated (for a minute) then turned over on its side. No one was hurt but it illustrates how little iron there is in a van.

hotdram

Hoss,
As deacon of transportation (minister of mobility?) you should recommend one of these 10 passenger vehicles:



~Rob

Hoss

Or they can go to using small buses...which is what we are doing. We recently bought a 24 passenger "people mover".

But, you were right on everything you said. Recommendations have been made to the big three to retrofit all current 15 passenger vans with dual wheels. For obvious reasons ($$$), they refused.

They could make dually vans for as little as $135 more per vehicle, but they refuse to do it.

With the number of people that have been killed in these things, I'm surprised that there haven't been big lawsuits.

Hoss

You brought up some other issues with the safety of these vans that I did not menion...but are certainly inportant.

Like your church, our church recently bought a 24 passenger gas powered bus. Now we are trying to decide if we want to keep the van as an alternate or get rid of it. That's what I'm supposed to be figuring out.

Jeff in TD

I recall seeing a TV show on the issue, where a case was going to court and there was a video of a loaded van on a skid course, rocking over onto 2 wheels until the outriggers they had on it kept it from going all the way. Naturally one lawyer was saying the video was nothing but drama, where the other lawyer claimed it proved the vehicle was unsafe.

I couldn't help but think that lots of vehicles would flip if you put in such an abrupt steering input at those speeds while fully loaded (like a pickup with a camper) and I thought it would have been interesting if they showed a small bus do the same manuver at the same speed... Then it dawned on me that with the big steering wheel and slower steering box gear ratio, I don't think it would be humanly possible to crank the wheels over that hard and that fast on a bus.

Anyhow, the part I thought was useful: They talked to other folks in a similar situation, already having 15 passenger vans that they can't afford to replace, but being concerned about safety.

If you can't get rid of the van, perhaps you could come up with a list of 15 passenger van commandments. For example:

-Only drivers over 30 years old (think about requring a CDL?)
-No eating, drinking, or cellphones (hands free or not) while driving
-No more than 12 people on board
-Can only be used to transport children when there is no other vehicle available

Just a thought...

westcoaster

there have been a few (more than one) accidents around here involving 15 pass vans. the east indian berry pickers crowd into them to be transported to and from the fields.
Something as simple as a tire blowing have caused them to hit the ditch and roll....

wagontrain131

My church has a number of them. We only alow 10 people in them includeing the driver, and no one is allowed to sit in the back seat. We have actually taken the back seat out of one. we also do not tow with them under any circumstances. We are going to replace them as soon as we can with small 15-20 passenger buses. We have a 40 passenger Freightliner bus, with a Cummins , so thats what we usally use for trips. We try to use the vans as little as possible. Also to be on our church insurance to drive the vans you have to have a CDL or you have to go through a driving course. In that course they show you all kinds of videos with wrecks in them. Alot of our people have walked out. They don't want to drive them anymore. I hate them. I dont like to ride in them much lees drive them.

-Kyle

ratsun

Yah... there has been many Berry Picker busses bite it, and most the time theres 20 of them in there. Old beater vans and busses with little or no service, bald tires, packed like sardines = anybody got a lisence????????

Hoss

It's interesting to come here this morning and read your post after the recommendations I just made to my elders. In fact, this is what I said:

You'd almost think I read your post to them.