Maybe I can save someone on this site the pain and aggravation let alone a thinning of the wallet I have gone through.



History –

First Death Wobble 80mph down to 35mph back on 02-16-06

Slowly degrading in speed when DW starts. Now it’s at 45mph down to 30mph before stopping. A total of 11ea. DW’s to date! All of them white knuckels!!!

Corrective actions taken to date.



Ordered both Thuren Track & Cross Bars at same time.

Track Bar came in first.

Installed Thuren Track Bar. Still had DW!



Cross Bar came in.

Installed Thuren Cross Bar no prevision for steering damper! (Less steering damper). Still had DW!



Took Truck to Dealer for front-end alignment. (All 04ea. Ball Joints were bad) No Alignment until ball joints are replaced.

Replaced all 04ea. ball joints. Still had DW!



Took Truck back to dealer today for front-end alignment. Gave dealer the following requested specs.

Caster left +3.2 right +3.5

Cross Caster +.3



Camber left -.10 right -.10

Cross Camber 0.0



Toe +.01 to +.10

Total to as close to Zero without being Zero.



Before Alignment readings were as follows.



Caster left +6.0 right +6.0

Cross Caster 0.00



Camber left +0.1 right –0.3

Cross Camber +0.4



Toe left +0.35 right +0.36

Total Toe +0.72





After alignment the readings were as follows.



Caster left +4.5 right +4.2

Cross Caster 0.3



Camber left +0.2 right –0.2

Cross Camber +0.50



Toe left 0.00 right +0.08

Total Toe +.09



Service tech reported DW after alignment was completed during test drive at 70mph. personally verified after, still has DW!



Balanced all 04ea tires and rims. Watched service tech and they were balanced properly. (Factory originals on factory rims). Still has DW!



Out of pocket at this time is around $2000.00 and still having DW! That does not count the tires that are looming on the horizon at another $1000.00.

Looking into aftermarket steering damper that will work with the Thuren Cross Bar. The only thing other than that, which has not been addressed, is the suspension arms 04ea. of them and about $500.00 factory jobs without installation.

I’m dying here as this is biting heavily into the old pocket book. The steering damper is cheaper than the suspension arms and I will try that first.



Any other suggestions???



Hopefully someone will benefit from the order of things addressed.



Thank You

IC

 

replace the trac bar and be done with it

 

He did. He put a thurens track bar on it.

Try turning the alignment cams on the front of the lower control arms as far forward as possible. On my buddy's truck we fought the same thing and he finally went and bought new tires, solved the problem.

 

Did you even read the post?

It sounds like your truck was made to have death wobble. I just had a very bad case of it myself, and found that my toe was in too much.

Have you checked your steering gear box for play? Mine had about an inch of play in it after a few death wobble episodes that were caused by worn out factory steering. After I replaced the steering with Thuren's stuff, I still had death wobble because the gears in the gear box were totally worn out. I ordered a new one and had PSC modify it for hydro assist, so now I am going to be running a hydraulic cylinder in addition to the Thuren steering. A stabilizer might solve the problem for you but it's really just covering up a design flaw somewhere. I hope you get this figured out because I know how frustrating it can be. Anyway, see how much play there is in the steering box by undoing the drag link from the pitman arm and then moving the pitman arm by hand when the truck is off. It should not move or rattle at all unless you really push on it.

 

Shoot, we still have the nasty death wobble on an '03 My '84 has it bad, but I blame it mostly on the tires. I fortunately have not had it on my '99. (sure hope I did not just curse myself)

Sorry, I have no real suggestions. Just wanted to encourage you too keep up the good research.

 

My first experience with DW came about 4 months ago - when my stock track bar pulled through the nut at the frame side connection.

There had been hearing a 'popping' noise from time to time and didn't get underneath to try and figure out what was loose.

I tied up the track bar and drove home since I was about 15 miles away. I couldn't go over 35mph without problems, but I made it ok.

I replaced it with another stock track bar and things have been fine since. Also, I should mention that there was no trouble with stock track bar or had any signs of DW in the first 75k miles.

My stock steering gear has got some play in it now and I plan to replace with a PSC whenever they figure out the "glich" that caused em to pull their replacement gears from their website.

Anyway, no revelations about your trouble with DW in my story, but I just wanted to give you some food for thought. If I had to guess - based on my limited experience and knowledge base - I am thinking your trouble is related to your tires, IdleChatter'n. Pressure maybe? Different size? If that doesn't do it, then I would think the problem was manufactured into your frame.

Good luck with it - and keep us updated if you find the time.

 

What kind of tires do you have? I had a case of DW , replaced everything but the tires and still had it with different alignment specs. Replaced the tires and it was gone forever.

 

Thanks guys for the replies and suggestions.



Hopefully I will have the time shortly to inspect the steering gearbox and see if there is play. I did not originally inspect it as the truck has 51,000mi to date and still on stock tires. I’m wondering at this point now if the pounding the front end has taken during the DW’s could have increased the play in the gears in the box? Sounds reasonable to me.

On another note, I have seen online footage of the death wobble in action and it looked to me as if the tires are toeing in at the same time then toeing out at the same time in rapid succession. Question is with the thuren bar in place (in my logical mind) it would not be able to do this any longer right, as the solid bar between the wheels would prevent it. Sounds logical to me. But there could certainly be large forces exerted on the steering gearbox that could allow the wheels as a whole or both at the same time to swing back and forth. I just wish I could see underneath while it was happening.

Is it possible that the tires are osculating back on one side while going forward on the other side, in possibly worn out bushings on the suspension arms???

If only one could see it as it was happening up close and personal.

I have read about the assist cylinder and may look into it when the pocket book allows. I agree the stabilizer damper would be covering up an existing problem. I would like to get to the bottom of this before it takes out someone or someone rear ends the truck when I slam on the brakes without any visual reason as to why. Kinda catches people behind you off guard.

Where can the PSC be found? I have not done a search on it yet?


Thanks Again for the replies and suggestions.
I will post any further developments.
Proceeding with Caution.

IC

 

PSC steering gears for Dodge trucks used to be located at this address: PSC Motorsports - Dodge Steering Gears

They sell for about $300 and my online research seems to indicate that they are very reputable. I haven't found any complaints about them. With that in mind though, PSC has recently pulled their steering gears for '94 and newer Dodges from their website while they address some issue that owners were having. I called them last week, looking to order one and the fellow told me to check back in 2-3 weeks.

I believe my run-in with DW was a major factor in the play my steering gear now has.

By the way, I was thinking that mounting a camera or two under your front bumper would be a great learning tool...

 

I had recurring death worbal too..
Each of the items you replaced I did too.
In addition to your items my brake rotors were warped too.
So imagine getting death wobble at 60 mph Then hitting the brakes and having the warped rotors jump into the mix.
NOT FUN!!!

I have to say the new steering box and the DSS bracket really made a difference.
I have the DT track bar as well.
Please keep in mind.
One occurance of death wobble can ruin all of the new parts real fast.

I found that the shocks are also part of the mix.

What I did learn was this.
Warped rotors were the initial cause of all my problems.
They wear out everything in the front end and it just gets worse from there.

SFB
Keep those caliper pins well lubbed!

 

What was the problem they were having? I noticed the other day that when I'm trying to manuever a trailer through a parking lot and I'm doing a lot of twisting and turning of the steering wheel that it starts to puke fluid everywhere.

 

By the way, I was thinking that mounting a camera or two under your front bumper would be a great learning tool...

I don't know if the camera would last or even be veiwable with all of the shaking. There has to be some way of visual verification maybe a chase vehical running beside the DW'er

IC

 

Wow IC, sounds like you've tackled almost everything!!!

After reading everything you've done, and being very familiar with what can happen and why, I think you have a defective/extremely worn/bad/seperating/out-of-round tire(s). It's also the last thing besides the control arms you haven't replaced..

Out of curiosity, have you rotated the front tires to the back? That could tell you something if the DW changes...

Anyway, a few notes...

There are two different types of DW that can relate to eachother under the right conditions. The first type is DIRECTLY related to tire ballance and symmetry. I say symmetry for a few reasons, as if the DW is 100% related to vehicle speed and not dependant on road conditions(smooth/bumpy), something in the tires IS wrong. Now, you can ballance all you wan't, but a tire which has been worn down pretty far is most likely out of round, and has been heat cycled so many times it is just asking for the inner plys to seperate. It would most likely be physically out of round for the reason that, if you look really close, each lug on the tire(most tires are like this) is not the same width in a somewhat random pattern. With the lugs being different sizes they will wear at different rates and have a different pull on the tire at a higher speed causing the tire to un-ballance itself. If a ply starts to seperate you will get an ever-so-slight bulge at high speed causing that part of the tire to swing on a larger radius causing a MASSIVE ballance issue. These are just possibilites which I have seen and experienced first hand...

The other type is shock related and somewhat rare at that. If DW only happens when you hit a bump, and never on a smooth road section at the same speed, it's most likely the shocks low gas pressure as the main issue. What happens is the low gas pressure is letting the piston pull a vacuum, and the shocks will be dead for just long enough, to have the verticle tire motion, and the arc of the control arm swing and bushing defection, transfer that energy into horizontal tire swing around the ball joints causing DW. Once the oscillation gets started it's all it takes. One reason I recommend any high pressure monotube gas shock(bilstein,KYB gas-a-just-monomax, etc.), at the least, just in case.

DW can also get worse with wider/less backspaced rims, as the swing radius around the ball joint is increased, causing tire ballance to have a multiplied effect on overpowering steering/suspension components. Having 32" tires on a 3" backspaced rim is just about as prone to DW as having 38's on 6" backspaced rims. The ideal design would be to have the ball joints inside the rim and none of this DW junk would really come up...

Maybe you can get your dealer to swap out some tires/rims temporarily just to see???


Hope this helps some!!


-Don Thuren

 

Bigblue - The guy didn't say exactly what was wrong. I didn't push the issue cause I was in a hurry to get to a meeting at work, sorry. If you are having trouble, give em a call Monday - you might have the same issue that caused em to pull their gears...

Thanks for the insight Don. Is there a definate way to tell that plys have begun to seperate - other than feeling a shimy or wobble at high speeds, after you just had a balance done?

 

Don



Thank you for your reply.

The DW is driving me nuts, as it is getting worse and worse. 35mph today it started the DW but I backed off before it was in full shaking mode. It does seem to be a bump in the road that gets it started.

I did check while the service tech was balancing the tires and while they were spinning they were symmetrical or were round and not dribbling up and down while it was spinning.

I get what your saying about the tread lugs being different widths and thus wear at different rates. I don’t think the plies have separated. Normally is there is separation there is some kind of visual indication of it or at least an indication when it really gets bad separated anyway.

I see no visual indications of bulges or bumps or the tread being pulled to one side or the other etc.

Shocks are another matter. I do have a Hell Bent 2" leveling kit under the front end. I am sure this is not helping the stock shocks in any way. After all the shocks are extended 2" further out than normal and would have to affect its travel. I do not follow the (" to have the vertical tire motion, and the arc of the control arm swing and bushing defection, transfer that energy into horizontal tire swing around the ball joints causing DW" ) I'm thinking your talking about the horizontal movement from rubber bushings in the control arms moving back and forward on opposing sides. But not the last part about it swinging around the ball joints causing DW.

Please elaborate if you will.

It is possible that it could be tire related, controls arm bushings worn out and or shocks. These have not been addressed yet. And I will talk to the dealer and see if they would be interested in swapping tires long enough for a test spin. It only takes driving down the service road in front of the dealership to find out.

As for your products you produce, they are great and I would purchase them again. Believe me when I say I was hoping for a cure all.

Thanks again for your reply.

IC