Medium Duty Rollback???
10-24-2006, 03:06 PM
#32
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While for starters, the only truck I've found that has them is a Ford. Sorry, already been there!
IH is IH, Chevy is CAT or 7.8L Duramax, and I haven't found any CAT's yet, Freightliner is Mercedes. Cummins has lost a following in the MD section!
Chris
IH is IH, Chevy is CAT or 7.8L Duramax, and I haven't found any CAT's yet, Freightliner is Mercedes. Cummins has lost a following in the MD section!
Chris
10-24-2006, 03:11 PM
#33
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No experience but I recall that Monty had some comments on the M2.
See the whole thread here https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ighlight=flash
See the whole thread here https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ighlight=flash
We're leaning towards the IH, but that Freightliner is a good looking truck too! I don't like the VGT on the IH, but I have a friend that is very familiar with them from School bus duty. He'll help us make our final decision between the finalists from a servicing standpoint!
I might run up to the FL dealer and see if there are any M2's to look at...but if they drive/fell anything like our FL80, I already like them!
Chris
10-24-2006, 06:05 PM
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Why not the C6500 GMC with the CAT? Get one with a 21-24' Flatbed or a 21' bed w/a Shark Tail.
I drove a C6500 and loved it! It was the lower profile tires and rims too! The one I specifically had was with a Century Bed and WL. I felt the truck was great! There were alot of other's in the Outfit I was with that had the Older IH's w/ 19' Shark Tails. Yet I hated those 19 footers had permenant side rails and that sucked!
Just my $.02. The Shark Tail is nice for lower cars such as vettes yet the standard Century 21' bed is a good call too!
John
I drove a C6500 and loved it! It was the lower profile tires and rims too! The one I specifically had was with a Century Bed and WL. I felt the truck was great! There were alot of other's in the Outfit I was with that had the Older IH's w/ 19' Shark Tails. Yet I hated those 19 footers had permenant side rails and that sucked!
Just my $.02. The Shark Tail is nice for lower cars such as vettes yet the standard Century 21' bed is a good call too!
John
10-25-2006, 09:38 AM
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Well, I'm not opposed to the CAT, but you can't find the Chevy/CAT combo anymore. Everyone is ordering them with the 7.8L Duramax/Izuzu, which doesn't suprice me since GM is a part owner! It's also not a bad engine from what I hear
I'm also not gonna order a truck and pay for the extra $5K emissions crap either, so I'm limited on what's already out there!
I did find a C6500 speced about like we want, but it has 10R22.5 rubber which is too tall, and I can buy a IH or Freighliner cheaper ($41700 for the IH, $42300 on the FL, or $42700 for the Chevy) that is speced out a little better, and it are a true Lo-Pro!!
Not that $1000 is a big difference, but to us, the Chevy should be the cheaper one
Thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming!!
I'm also not gonna order a truck and pay for the extra $5K emissions crap either, so I'm limited on what's already out there!
I did find a C6500 speced about like we want, but it has 10R22.5 rubber which is too tall, and I can buy a IH or Freighliner cheaper ($41700 for the IH, $42300 on the FL, or $42700 for the Chevy) that is speced out a little better, and it are a true Lo-Pro!!
Not that $1000 is a big difference, but to us, the Chevy should be the cheaper one
Thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming!!
10-25-2006, 07:03 PM
#36
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Just a quick note on a letter that was sent out by Freightliner. Starting in 07, MB and Cummins will be the standard engines that you can order in the M2 106 or M2 112. On top of that, CAT will no longer be offered in these as well.
This was sent to dealers to make sure that the shops had the proper training on the new Cummins engines.
More than likely it is software incompatability with CAT. Give it a year or two and it will be back. They went thru the same thing with Cummins a couple of years ago when they quit offering them.
Anyway, just thought I would pass it on if do plan on ordering the M2.
BTW, the new IH medium duties use almost the same multiplexing system as the M2.
This was sent to dealers to make sure that the shops had the proper training on the new Cummins engines.
More than likely it is software incompatability with CAT. Give it a year or two and it will be back. They went thru the same thing with Cummins a couple of years ago when they quit offering them.
Anyway, just thought I would pass it on if do plan on ordering the M2.
BTW, the new IH medium duties use almost the same multiplexing system as the M2.
10-26-2006, 07:26 AM
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Like I said, not gonna order one due to the new emmisions "pricing"...but thanks for the heads up!
So the IH and FL use the same electronics "system," so either one we get, we'll have about the same electrical troubles right??
Why don't they use a CANbus system like everyone else is going to?? Or is it, and they're just not labeling it as one??
Thanks Again Everyone,
Chris
So the IH and FL use the same electronics "system," so either one we get, we'll have about the same electrical troubles right??
Why don't they use a CANbus system like everyone else is going to?? Or is it, and they're just not labeling it as one??
Thanks Again Everyone,
Chris
10-26-2006, 01:35 PM
#38
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Both systems still use the J1939 and J1708 comms. However, the big change is how each component on the truck is controlled. Instead of using relays for switching etc. All components are now micro processor controlled which does the switching internally, eliminating the need for relays.
Ill try my best to explain a rough rundown of the system. First off is the bulkhead module. The bulkhead module (BHM) is the primary module for the electrical system. The BHM controls other moduls such as the ICU (instrument cluster), and the CHM (chassis module) along with other vehicle components either directly or inderectly.
The Chassis Module, or (CHM) and the expansion module (ESM) both serve the same function in the M2 electrical system by acting as slaves to the Bulkhead Module (BHM). The CHM and EXM respond to commands
from the BHM and broadcast the status of the inputs and outputs that are sent to and delivered by the modules.
Smart switches. These took the place of your normal toggle switches that are normally seen in a truck. The smart switches have there own circuit board which identifies itself to the BHM. So, with a smart switch, you can basically unplug two and swap the connectors and they will still work since its identity stays with the switch and the BHM picks up on the movement. When adding a smart switch, you have to program the bulkhead module to look for it. This is one of the major reasons you cannot go splicing into the wires in the dash on an M2. They are low current switches and if hooked to a high current load, they will fail.
If you were to open up the dash on an M2, you will see that there are just a handful of wires in the dash, everything else is on a twisted pair datalink. All electric over air switches are no longer in the dash.
Air Management Unit (AMU) is a collection of pneumatic and electronic valves and pressure switches of modular form that fasten together in a
row on a common rail. The AMU performs functions such as indicating various
air pressure levels (switches), supplying either constant air or electrically controlled air to various chassis components (via an electric solenoid or pressure protected port). It also provides for pneumatic logic controls via double-check, inversion, relay and pressure regulation, therefore replacing doublecheck, inversion and relay valves on the vehicle.
The solenoid modules control chassis components or systems such as PTO function, fifth-wheel slide, rear suspension dump, inter-axle lock, diff-lock, transfer case, and other ON-OFF air options such as the engine fan, brake switch etc.
Have I lost you yet?
So, say you want to add PTO function to a truck and integrate it into the multiplex functions. First, you would have to buy a PTO smart switch. Dont worry about wiring it up, the connector is already there, and as I said earlier it translates its identity down to the BHM.
Now, we need to program the BHM to see the PTO function from the smart switch. After this is accomplished we will then wire our signal wire to our PTO into the Chassis Module. It does not matter which cavity you put the wire in at the CHM. They use a floating pin assignment. You find a cavity that is open and program the CHM to see the PTO function on that cavity.
Now, if we are dealing with electric over air PTO, then you are going to need a new expansion block to install into the air management unit to send air down to the PTO.
After all this is done, we can now program the engine and transmission for PTO ramp rate, interlock functions 4th gear lockup while pumping (if needed) etc.
Once you get to know the electronics on the system, they arent too difficult. The biggest problem is learning the system since it is so different than what we are used too.
I hope you can see now where a splice in a wire that shouldnt have been spliced can give you major problems.
Ill try my best to explain a rough rundown of the system. First off is the bulkhead module. The bulkhead module (BHM) is the primary module for the electrical system. The BHM controls other moduls such as the ICU (instrument cluster), and the CHM (chassis module) along with other vehicle components either directly or inderectly.
The Chassis Module, or (CHM) and the expansion module (ESM) both serve the same function in the M2 electrical system by acting as slaves to the Bulkhead Module (BHM). The CHM and EXM respond to commands
from the BHM and broadcast the status of the inputs and outputs that are sent to and delivered by the modules.
Smart switches. These took the place of your normal toggle switches that are normally seen in a truck. The smart switches have there own circuit board which identifies itself to the BHM. So, with a smart switch, you can basically unplug two and swap the connectors and they will still work since its identity stays with the switch and the BHM picks up on the movement. When adding a smart switch, you have to program the bulkhead module to look for it. This is one of the major reasons you cannot go splicing into the wires in the dash on an M2. They are low current switches and if hooked to a high current load, they will fail.
If you were to open up the dash on an M2, you will see that there are just a handful of wires in the dash, everything else is on a twisted pair datalink. All electric over air switches are no longer in the dash.
Air Management Unit (AMU) is a collection of pneumatic and electronic valves and pressure switches of modular form that fasten together in a
row on a common rail. The AMU performs functions such as indicating various
air pressure levels (switches), supplying either constant air or electrically controlled air to various chassis components (via an electric solenoid or pressure protected port). It also provides for pneumatic logic controls via double-check, inversion, relay and pressure regulation, therefore replacing doublecheck, inversion and relay valves on the vehicle.
The solenoid modules control chassis components or systems such as PTO function, fifth-wheel slide, rear suspension dump, inter-axle lock, diff-lock, transfer case, and other ON-OFF air options such as the engine fan, brake switch etc.
Have I lost you yet?
So, say you want to add PTO function to a truck and integrate it into the multiplex functions. First, you would have to buy a PTO smart switch. Dont worry about wiring it up, the connector is already there, and as I said earlier it translates its identity down to the BHM.
Now, we need to program the BHM to see the PTO function from the smart switch. After this is accomplished we will then wire our signal wire to our PTO into the Chassis Module. It does not matter which cavity you put the wire in at the CHM. They use a floating pin assignment. You find a cavity that is open and program the CHM to see the PTO function on that cavity.
Now, if we are dealing with electric over air PTO, then you are going to need a new expansion block to install into the air management unit to send air down to the PTO.
After all this is done, we can now program the engine and transmission for PTO ramp rate, interlock functions 4th gear lockup while pumping (if needed) etc.
Once you get to know the electronics on the system, they arent too difficult. The biggest problem is learning the system since it is so different than what we are used too.
I hope you can see now where a splice in a wire that shouldnt have been spliced can give you major problems.
10-26-2006, 02:32 PM
#39
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Understood...works just like the CANbus systems we use on the combines and tractors as far as wiring goes...except we still use circuit boards and relays to control switching. All the sensors and whatnot are the same, they know what is there, and when one is moved, it knows it!
So, in your opinion, is the FL electronics package better or worse than anything else you know of from competitors??
I have a quote in front of me on the M2...230/660 MBE906, 6 speed Manual, Benz Compression brake??? Is that a true compression brake??
If you don't mind, what do you think of the MBE engine??
Can't thank you enough for your input on this Monty!! You've been a big help so far with my FL80, and now making this decision!
I was leaning towards the IH, but now the FL is sounding like a nicer rig!
Chris
So, in your opinion, is the FL electronics package better or worse than anything else you know of from competitors??
I have a quote in front of me on the M2...230/660 MBE906, 6 speed Manual, Benz Compression brake??? Is that a true compression brake??
If you don't mind, what do you think of the MBE engine??
Can't thank you enough for your input on this Monty!! You've been a big help so far with my FL80, and now making this decision!
I was leaning towards the IH, but now the FL is sounding like a nicer rig!
Chris
10-26-2006, 04:04 PM
#40
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I cant say if ones multiplexing system is better than the other. However, when I spoke to a IH service mgr., he said IH was the first to roll theres out and had ALOT of teething problems. I think all in all both systems have been uprgraded and are more stable.
The biggest problem is making the owners or drivers understand how the system operates. The biggest issue we face is body builders adding a bed and overloading the circuit with lights. However, most have wised up and now either add LEDs or relays in the circuit.
The handling is definately better than the older FL models, with the turning radius one of the best features. And the A/C system is so much better. No more cables that go out of adjustment, or A/C control heads that wont work. It is a BEHR blend air A/C system with electronic acutating doors etc.
The MB's braking consist of either two options. One with a CTV (constant throttle valve) and an integrated exhaust brake built into the turbo housing. Or you can go with just the exhaust brake.
If you do go with this option, I strongly suggest you go with option 1 with both. The exhaust brake alone on the MB's isnt much to brag about. However, when you put both together, it really makes for good braking power.
The constant throttle valve operates much like a regular oil fed jake brake. However, it is integral to the head. The oil rail is internal to the head and the CTV actually sets under the injector hold down. This is good since it doesnt add anymore height to the valve cover.
The biggest problems seen with the MB900 series is broken fuel jumper tubes and leaking EGR coolers. Internal engine failures are almost non existant.
I wouldnt hesitate to spec out with a MB engine. However, I would stay well away from the C7.
The biggest problem is making the owners or drivers understand how the system operates. The biggest issue we face is body builders adding a bed and overloading the circuit with lights. However, most have wised up and now either add LEDs or relays in the circuit.
The handling is definately better than the older FL models, with the turning radius one of the best features. And the A/C system is so much better. No more cables that go out of adjustment, or A/C control heads that wont work. It is a BEHR blend air A/C system with electronic acutating doors etc.
The MB's braking consist of either two options. One with a CTV (constant throttle valve) and an integrated exhaust brake built into the turbo housing. Or you can go with just the exhaust brake.
If you do go with this option, I strongly suggest you go with option 1 with both. The exhaust brake alone on the MB's isnt much to brag about. However, when you put both together, it really makes for good braking power.
The constant throttle valve operates much like a regular oil fed jake brake. However, it is integral to the head. The oil rail is internal to the head and the CTV actually sets under the injector hold down. This is good since it doesnt add anymore height to the valve cover.
The biggest problems seen with the MB900 series is broken fuel jumper tubes and leaking EGR coolers. Internal engine failures are almost non existant.
I wouldnt hesitate to spec out with a MB engine. However, I would stay well away from the C7.
10-26-2006, 04:46 PM
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Chris,
The little I know about it. I would probably steer towards the FL on a new one. A buddy of mine owns a wrecker service. He bought a new flatbed IH Lo Pro about 2 years ago. He has not been happy at all with the electronic's on it. I haven't gone into detail about with him. But I know he's not a happy camper.
But maybe they have worked out the bugs since then. Good luck with your choice.
The little I know about it. I would probably steer towards the FL on a new one. A buddy of mine owns a wrecker service. He bought a new flatbed IH Lo Pro about 2 years ago. He has not been happy at all with the electronic's on it. I haven't gone into detail about with him. But I know he's not a happy camper.
But maybe they have worked out the bugs since then. Good luck with your choice.
10-26-2006, 05:15 PM
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Thanks Again All!!!
I like the FL, my Brother likes the IH, and Dad doesn't drive it...but we all sign the checks, so I think over the weekend we're gonna try and sit down and decide what we wanna do!
But keep the comments rolling!!
Chris
I like the FL, my Brother likes the IH, and Dad doesn't drive it...but we all sign the checks, so I think over the weekend we're gonna try and sit down and decide what we wanna do!
But keep the comments rolling!!
Chris
10-26-2006, 05:20 PM
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I cant say if ones multiplexing system is better than the other. However, when I spoke to a IH service mgr., he said IH was the first to roll theres out and had ALOT of teething problems. I think all in all both systems have been uprgraded and are more stable.
The biggest problem is making the owners or drivers understand how the system operates. The biggest issue we face is body builders adding a bed and overloading the circuit with lights. However, most have wised up and now either add LEDs or relays in the circuit.
The handling is definately better than the older FL models, with the turning radius one of the best features. And the A/C system is so much better. No more cables that go out of adjustment, or A/C control heads that wont work. It is a BEHR blend air A/C system with electronic acutating doors etc.
The MB's braking consist of either two options. One with a CTV (constant throttle valve) and an integrated exhaust brake built into the turbo housing. Or you can go with just the exhaust brake.
If you do go with this option, I strongly suggest you go with option 1 with both. The exhaust brake alone on the MB's isnt much to brag about. However, when you put both together, it really makes for good braking power.
The constant throttle valve operates much like a regular oil fed jake brake. However, it is integral to the head. The oil rail is internal to the head and the CTV actually sets under the injector hold down. This is good since it doesnt add anymore height to the valve cover.
The biggest problems seen with the MB900 series is broken fuel jumper tubes and leaking EGR coolers. Internal engine failures are almost non existant.
I wouldnt hesitate to spec out with a MB engine. However, I would stay well away from the C7.
The biggest problem is making the owners or drivers understand how the system operates. The biggest issue we face is body builders adding a bed and overloading the circuit with lights. However, most have wised up and now either add LEDs or relays in the circuit.
The handling is definately better than the older FL models, with the turning radius one of the best features. And the A/C system is so much better. No more cables that go out of adjustment, or A/C control heads that wont work. It is a BEHR blend air A/C system with electronic acutating doors etc.
The MB's braking consist of either two options. One with a CTV (constant throttle valve) and an integrated exhaust brake built into the turbo housing. Or you can go with just the exhaust brake.
If you do go with this option, I strongly suggest you go with option 1 with both. The exhaust brake alone on the MB's isnt much to brag about. However, when you put both together, it really makes for good braking power.
The constant throttle valve operates much like a regular oil fed jake brake. However, it is integral to the head. The oil rail is internal to the head and the CTV actually sets under the injector hold down. This is good since it doesnt add anymore height to the valve cover.
The biggest problems seen with the MB900 series is broken fuel jumper tubes and leaking EGR coolers. Internal engine failures are almost non existant.
I wouldnt hesitate to spec out with a MB engine. However, I would stay well away from the C7.
I'm not sure which "braking system" this has, all it says is Mercedes-Benz Compression Brake on the spec sheet...that's another quesition I need to ask!
Are the EGR coolers and fuel jumpers a major concer after the 5 year warranty period expires, or something that will get fixed earlier and stay fixed for a while??
Thanks Again Monty...Sorry to be a pain with all these questions, but your answers keep giving me me questions I should ask
Chris
10-26-2006, 06:11 PM
#44
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Are the EGR coolers and fuel jumpers a major concer after the 5 year warranty period expires, or something that will get fixed earlier and stay fixed for a while??
Thanks Again Monty...Sorry to be a pain with all these questions, but your answers keep giving me me questions I should ask
Chris
I think the main reason the fuel jumper lines are failing is someone at the factory overtorquing them and putting them in a bind. I have examined several closely and all show signs of fatique failure. On all of them, beach marks were present were the crack started. The beach marks ended about halfway and then the tube finally broke. The replacement parts seem to be doing a better job. Most guys are keeping an extra line with them if one breaks.
As far as the EGR coolers go, I look for them to redesign them. With so many warranty failures, they would be crazy not too. The main thing to look for is the slightest bit of coolant loss out of the surge tank with no external leaks. If you have any, take it in and make them check it.
10-26-2006, 06:20 PM
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Yeah, if the bodybuilders have done any wiring on the M2 chassis then they should know.
I think the main reason the fuel jumper lines are failing is someone at the factory overtorquing them and putting them in a bind. I have examined several closely and all show signs of fatique failure. On all of them, beach marks were present were the crack started. The beach marks ended about halfway and then the tube finally broke. The replacement parts seem to be doing a better job. Most guys are keeping an extra line with them if one breaks.
As far as the EGR coolers go, I look for them to redesign them. With so many warranty failures, they would be crazy not too. The main thing to look for is the slightest bit of coolant loss out of the surge tank with no external leaks. If you have any, take it in and make them check it.
I think the main reason the fuel jumper lines are failing is someone at the factory overtorquing them and putting them in a bind. I have examined several closely and all show signs of fatique failure. On all of them, beach marks were present were the crack started. The beach marks ended about halfway and then the tube finally broke. The replacement parts seem to be doing a better job. Most guys are keeping an extra line with them if one breaks.
As far as the EGR coolers go, I look for them to redesign them. With so many warranty failures, they would be crazy not too. The main thing to look for is the slightest bit of coolant loss out of the surge tank with no external leaks. If you have any, take it in and make them check it.
And the EGR coolers sound like they'll get it fixed too...are they a PITA to change out??
Chris