Looks like they're going to try harder this time:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...9013/1528/FREE

(re second paragraph)

I certainly hope they get it right this time, competition is a good thing.

 

They may get all the bugs out, but it's still an overly complex engine that will be a pain to modify. I'll never buy a Ford again. I just wish DC would own up on their warranty mistakes.

 

Sound`s like they are trying to stop the bleeding. They will say everything they can to contain/stop image damage with more propaganda on reliability. Are you ready to be a 50K guinea pig....
Ford`s still using a V-8 Diesel with the same configuration as the 6.0-L
Displacement changes and a another turbo will only add to the problems.
K.I.S.S. would be my thought on this. Not to make it even more complex.

 

The government has done away with K.I.S.S. on any new auto. Cummins will have its share of issues I am sure. The required EGR's will cause problems for most everyone I think, diesel wise anyway. But if you remember, cars in the late 70's and 80's with egr's had the same issues. But when was the last time you heard of a gas engine built in the last 15 years have egr issues related to clogged passages? Its just not a problem anymore. Diesels will have the same growing pains but it should be easier since they have knowledge gleaned from the past to help them out.

Have you guys looked under the hood of a new Dodge with a 6.7L? Its not so simple looking anymore. Also no one seems to question Dodge increasing displacement by almost a liter but power did not go up at all. Why do you think that is? New emissions requirements has seriously hurt power output. I believe they had to increase displacement to keep thier power output competitive.

Thats one reason ford increased the displacement on their engine. The new 6.4 is a bored out 6.0 that is true. But the bottom end was not the problem on the 6.0. It was carbon issues related to the egrs, and turbos, and oil issues mostly due to customer neglect and asking the oil system to do too much, that caused injector problems along with lots of other problems since they asked the oil system to do so much. But engine mechanical failures on un modified enigines with good maintenance records were rare. Unfortunately the myriad of other problems is all anyone knows about.

They have made serious changes to the egr problems and turbo problems (which were mostly vgt related, an oil controlled devise on the 6.0), the oil now needs only to lubricate bearings now, which will relieve injector failures and allow a little more lee way on owner maintenance issues.

Head gaskets were also a problem, they addressed that by shortening the bolts and making them physically bigger. A modern turbo charged diesel has a tough life. Think about this. What happens to metal as it expands? What happens as it cools? Now have you ever watched your egt guage while you drive? It continually goes from 300+/- to 1200+/-. Thats a lot of expanding and contracting and the head/heads of a turbo diesel do a lot of that expanding and contracting along with egt temps, while the block tends to stay at more of a constant temp thanks to the cooling system. Quite frankly I think its a miracle of modern technology that head gaskets on these beasts hold out at all!

I am not trying to slam anyones engine, especially our beloved Cummins. I still believe it is the strongest, toughest built diesel in a personal use truck sold anywhere. But I hope its growing pains are no where near as tough as Fords, because I think it will have some growing pains. As far as modifying a new Ford, I think the hay day, as it were, of a pretty much open season on modding diesel engines is over. That is not a manufacturors decision it is a government one, a decision that will effect all brands.

 

That is hardley an "owning up" however it's at least a slight admission of fault.

 

Still only 10 head bolts a head.

 

Just an FYI, Cummins has been testing the EGR and VV Turbos for over 4 years now so I think they will have most of the bugs worked out. Also GM has been using the ERG as long as Ford has and has had fewer problems then Ford. Fords problem is Ford because they put their fingers in how things were on that engine before it went in to their trucks. BTW, IH does not have as many problems with the same engine block as Ford does.

 

The engines used in medium use trucks or IH engines as you put it did not have the issues partly because they were worked alot harder than the engines in Ford pickups. We have not seen anywhere near as many issues on fleet use f-450/f-550 trucks either, particularly the heavier trucks. Some of that can be attributed to the fact that the 6.0 running at higher loads did not flow egr much at all. However in a f250 or f350 spending most of its time running around empty or even partly loaded it is flowing egr almost all of the time. The new standard will cause new diesel engines to flow egr all of the time. I do mean all of the time, including idle and full throttle.

If you read the whole atricle you saw that Ford has been runing this new engine for several years now too. And not just on a track being used by Ford engineers. But by fleet use guys in the field. Guys who don't care about a truck or its engine as long as it starts.

The 6.0 was a mistake for Ford, no doubt. However International was not completely innocent. Ford has paid a heavy price for its mistakes. If this engine tanks there is a very good chance there will not be a Ford Motor Company at all in a few years. I have been a tried and true Chevy guy since I was a kid. I have had several Camaros, Chevelles, a Monte Carlo, an S-10 Blazer, and a Suburban. I love my Dodge Cummins but there is not much else I would own from Daimler Chrysler. Ford has been my arch enemy for years, what was a better rivalry than Mustang/Camaro? But I realize the effect on our economy it will have if they go under.

 

I wonder if they tested them up in the cold just letting them idle for days on end, since this is all a lot of oil patch trucks end up doing. I'd think that would be just as hard or harder than having to haul all the time.

 

the response to the question"in 10 million miles did anything break"sounded just like a politician.lots of fancy talk but never really got a straight answer!!

 

What they told us is that the fleets they gave trucks to were oil rig workers in Texas and Alaska. So I am sure the engines got plenty of abuse, idleing, cold weather, hot weather, etc.

 

Bingo. That's what I'm talkin about right there. Who, in their right mind would do that? I just don't get it.

Must be because people don't know any better I guess.

 

they must have an INSANE amount of undercover 6.4L on the road to have logged 4 million real world miles in just the last few months (a year max). they say hundreds and hundreds but people would leak info if there were that many out there.

 

They say 4 million miles total for hundreds of vehicles.
So lets go the lowest possible number. (Hundreds with an "S" would mean a very minimum of 200, right?) So we start with 200 trucks multiplied by 20,000 miles each equals 4 million miles. That is not a very good test in my book. How can you get a real good look at dependibility with an average of just 20,000 miles? And this was suposedly done over a 3+ year period. (That's less the 7,000 miles per year. Grandma drives more then that, and she's been dead for 20+ years.) And even at just 6,500-7,000 miles per year they are having issues, but they claim they are getting them down to where they want it.

 

Macjazzy addressed this situation correctly.
The reliability factor was a function of simplicity. This is one reason Cummins has/had the reputation that they have because Cummins knows that their reliability has come from decades of simplicity in design.
However, that reliability factor has now been compromised by Federal regulations imposed by the EPA.
As previously mentioned, the diesel market is now facing the same challenges that the gas market endured when faced with the same Federal EPA requirements.
It is my personal opinion that the US gas powered market is just now starting to overcome those EPA imposed challenges.
I hope that the 30 years it took the big three to learn the lessons for the gas powered market can be applied to the diesel market in much shorter time.
An interesting point to ponder will be to watch what Toyota, Honda, and other "Non-Big-Three" diesel trucks will do while the big-three work out their EPA growing pains.

Rich.