Edwin,

Thanks for the links. I will definately look them over when I get some time to do so.

 

Synthetics have generally more desirable properties than dino. It's basic chemistry.

But what's VERY unclear is whether or not the superiority of a synthetic is NEEDED, or worth the cost.

In racing, there are essentially no dino oils used.

Yet, in trucking conventional oils rule the roost. What does this tell us?

In racing, performance at any cost is the game. IN trucking, cost IS performance, and the best performance is the lowest operating cost.

jh

 

In trucking, lowest RELIABLE operating cost, not just lowest cost. They could save $.50/quart with car oil, but why? Rotella & Delo rule because they work and meet Cummins spec.
Our trucks are not race vehicles, mostly. Most people haul stuff, that's why they got the truck.
If people want to spend money on syn, let 'em. As maketing types say, we can't fix stupid. Perhaps another case of Syn & those filters?
We appreciate your business, Come back soon.

 

Trucking companies have access to the money to keep their engines in good repair and generally do major overhauls at fixed intervals or else the leasing company does it for them. These costs are figured into the operating costs of the company and some bean counter has determined that dino oil is more ecconomical.

For myself, the few dollars extra for synthetic oil and it's all around better properties for the varied driving I do is worth it to know I'll be running my engine well past the reccommended MTBO of 350,000 miles or so.

Truck engines are run at a mostly constant speed and load for mile after mile so single weight dino oil is adequate. My truck has to start cold in the mornings in January and sometimes run very hot pulling loads. The synthetic oil gives me better fuel mileage, and beter lubrication under both the cold starting and the hot running.

Synthetic oil can be run for much longer periods between changes so in the long run it's more ecconomical to run synthetic.

Edwin

 

I won't use fram filters at our shop anymore because I have seen them fail and they will not stand behind their product. I had a whole batch that would blow the seem on c model cat fuel filters fram admited on the phone there was a problem but wouldn't even replace the filters. That one I wrote off as ohwell maybe them truck had too much fuel pressure but then I had a D3 dozer that did the same thing idleing in the parking lot with a brand new filter and distroyed the crankmy insureance company had an indepent lab check the filter and they said it was the filters fault, but fram just said it wasn't their problem sue us. my insureance paid for the motor and they determined that fram was to big to try and fight it wasn't worth it.

 

I've found this article very good for deciding what kind of oil you want to use.
How Your Motives Influence Motor Oil Selection
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=529

 

Edwin,

Thanks again for the links. After looking them over I am still not convinced that the cost of Synthetics are worth it.


My last report from Blackstone Labs showed VERY low numbers for all wear metal catagories and was not contaminated with any diesel fuel, moisture, or anti-freeze. TBN was 9.9. Blackstone recommends that I INCREASE my mileage between changes. I won't do it, but the fact that they say I can tells me that the dino oil is doing it's job and doing it well.

I spoke with one of their testers by phone and he thinks guys that run extended intervals over 10k is crazy.......synthetic or not. There are still microscopic fragments of metal circulating around in that engine causing wear and that is why that oil needs to be drained and replaced regularly.

For now, unless someone presents some extremely convincing evidence to the contrary.........im sticking with Shell Rotella T 15w40 and a new Fleetguard Stratapore filter every 5k.

 

How can something be low cost if it isn't reliable? Wouldn't you be losing all kind of money to the cost of downtime??

I'm not sure I understand the difference between lowest cost and lowest RELIABLE operating cost...

 

I was just offerring an example of a cheaper alternative yet. For example, some people have run standard 20W-50 motor oil in their CTD, std sae auto.
Cheaper, but proably not a reliable course. Not to mention it does not meet Cummins spec.
I agree it makes sense to stick with facts, not theory.
No one has yet to touched on when does it make economical sense to move on to the next truck. The motor may go 600k without a rebuild, but is the AC, electronics, tranny, worn out interior, wiring harness, etc. eventually get to the point where it is no longer economical to keep the thing?
Perhaps the real question is where the break even point is on the truck? CTD may know. Perhaps a few out there have numbers over a few trucks on when its time to move on?

 

It all depends on where your personal break even point is. For myself, I can do 90% of the repairs myself so that breakeven point is a lot further out than for somebody who has to pay, through the nose, for OP to do the work.

I chose a 1st gen because it's something I can work on with ordinary tools and parts are relatively cheap. 90% of my problems have been with the Dodge part of my truck and those things I can do very inexpensively. The engine with 160,000 miles has a long way to go before it needs major work so I guess my break even point may be out at 500,000 or beyond. Only then because I currently lack the heavy duty tools to do the overhaul. Then I'll probably buy a reman engine or another used engine with a decent truck around it and begin the proces over again.

The synthetic oil will save me money on oil changes and also make my engine go further. That's why it's worth the extra cost.

Edwin

Very Good Thread!

 

oil does 3 main things. It cleans, it cools and it lubricates. Can one clean better, maybe-but if the dino oil will clean enough for the particular application, is it good?

Since oil needs to be in a standard operating range, and dino oil will keep it there, is it still good?

Since your rings/bearings/pistions, etc should be running on a layer of oil, and as long as there is a layer there, wear should be at its least minimal, is dino still good enough?

I run nothing but Dino oils in my engines, rears, etc. My getrag does get Synthetic for one reason, heat. I know synthetic oils will respond better when extreme temps are reached. If something goes wrong, I want some layer of protection. The racecar gets the same thing.

If I was operating in very cold climate without plugging in all the time, i would choose a synthetic for the lower viscosity. But I am not convinced that Synthetics are all that for normal operating conditions-im just not. And I think if the education was being picked up by everyone and thier brother, you would see more synthetic oils on the shelf, than dino's.

 

Well, it looks like this thread has turned into a religeous war. All we need now is for somebody to compare the oil companies who promote synthetic oil to Hitler.

Didn't Hitler's scientists develope synthetic diesel OIL fuel from coal?



Edwin

 

Ok, I found something....I believe it was at Cummins website on filters that are approved for our babies. They were the Mopar, Fleetgaurd and the Cummins filters, all had part numbers listed.....but I'm lucky I remembered it was at the Cummins website. So I bought 2 of the stratopore and 2 fuel filters. Oil on the other hand, that is why I am here. Worked in the trucking industry and saw A LOT of owner operators with $130,000 Petes and such running Rotella in their rigs..either Cat, Cummins or Detroit Diesels, mileage on these trucks in excess of 500,000 and would probably be at 700,000 by the end of the year.

So my oil of choice? Undecided....might try the Delo, probably do some more research before my first oil change.

The Frams, well, when I was at the dodge dealer we had an engine sitting in the shop floor, 5.9 with the Fram disease. The customer ended up paying for the engine something like $11,000 labor/parts. I learned this from a friend who was working there when it came in.....so not first hand for me but did see the engine in ruins.

Edwin, I know I am new here and this is not bashing or anything. I run syn in my exploder and it has 180,000 miles on it with no leak, no problems and as long as it does not leak....it will get the syn. Saturn ran syn up to around 150,000 but started the typical GM oil consumption...most notibly in the beloved Northstar engines....(much experience) So the saturn got downgraded to syn blend and then to castrol by it by the case 5w-30 and it is pushing 220,000 and have down some minor things like coolant temp sensor and 3 alternators, in which advance auto has provided the last two with their lifetime warranty, thanks advance!!

But to say an over the road truck has a more stable life...I know that's not your exact words...no flame or bash, just my .02. Hauling 80,000lbs to 100,000lbs, through 120 degree heat, 8-10 hours a day, 6-7 days a week. Then 10-20-30 degrees, idling in the truck stop for hours at a time while the driver eats, showers, fuels, watches tv/movie, sleeps keeping the truck running for the ac or heat...and scheduled overhauls? Again, no bashing, please don't take this personally.... The only schedule maintenance might be the DOT inspection and oil changes. everything else is darn....better get them brakes checked out, or darn...need tires, is that Cat leaking oil?? They do get lube jobs/greased....some more than others. Some OTR drivers, especially if it was their truck took good care of them, others, company drivers would not...but some would. I have seen a bunch of different drivers and overhauling the engine was not something they planned on doing, or the fuel system...usually stemmed from some sort of problem or the involvement of a Very Large tow truck. I did however see that the Roadway trucks, abused severely and driven very hard, somewhere around a million miles they might just say to us...go ahead and replace the engine and clutch...never mind the truck was falling apart around it...and we would put in a new engine and clutch. The engine would go back to Detroit Diesel so they could inspect it and see how it held up...that's what the company told me. They were using plano oil in those and most never had any problems other than the minor things..water pump, coolant leak or football gaskets..

So I know this is a huge post and no harm was meant, just pointing out what I know. Today most fleet companies get new under warranty trucks so they don't have to worry about anything other than oil changes and basic maintenance and the occasional O-S###!!! problem. If it's in the shop and the driver is in a hotel....your truck ain't makin' no money....

 

Thanks for the thoughtful post dodgeguy71. I don't take it personal when somebody shares their experience. I like to soak up the wealth of knowledge on these pages and I gain even from those with whom I disagree.

I think I have said enough about the oil debate however so I'll just read the thread from here on.

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Edwin

 

From my perspective - synthetics have several advantages over Dino -

They provide greater shear strength at thinner viscosity -
greater shear is good for cam\lifter\pushrod\rocker arm interface, timing gear tooth interface, and piston ring to cylinder wall interface
Thinner viscosity means less resistance to motion
Less friction + less resistance equates to more power with increased fuel economy

They begin to break down at much higher temperatures - good for turbocharged engines which produce greater btu output

Combustion process does not alter synthetic chemical structure as much as Dino oil - they offer much longer service life before replacement is required = more miles between oil changes.

Only real problem is - no practical method exists to in-truck remove or neutralize the chemical changes resulting from combustion byproduct.
Filters can remove the ash, soot, dust, metallic particles, but the unfilterable components are corrosive to iron, steel, and aluminum engine components

Positive factor is - these products in synthetic oils accumulate much slower than in Dino oils

If you like 100,000 mile oil changes, as the 18-wheelers seem to be going to, the synthetics offer much less accumulative damage than Dino, with long-term accumulative fuel economy savings.
Filters can control the metallics and silicates levels.

For me - I change the oil when I no longer can read the instructive legend on the dipstick - about every three to four months - so synthetics are out of the question, with simple economics in mind.