Diesel hotrodding is over?!?!?
01-24-2007 | 07:50 PM
#16
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From: Kansas City Kansas
DMcpherson, I can't speak to the truth of that statement of course. I heard it from somoeone who while should know more than me may not have the whole story. But to be fair it is not 80 of total warr. claims. Just mechanical engine concerns, ie cracked pistons, bad bearings, blown headgaskets, etc. I can tell you that it is getting very rare to see engines having those type of problems when totally stock without some sort of owner neglect or abuse.
Even the definition of abuse is changing due to engines being built better. It is not uncommon at all to see Crown Vic cabs with 3-4 hundred thousand miles on them. And I guarantee the maintenance schedule of most of those cabs is not adhered to very strictly.
Even the definition of abuse is changing due to engines being built better. It is not uncommon at all to see Crown Vic cabs with 3-4 hundred thousand miles on them. And I guarantee the maintenance schedule of most of those cabs is not adhered to very strictly.
It is the norm to have 6.0's totally stock with blown headgaskets. I know plenty of guys with BONE STOCK 6.0 powerstrokes that blew headgaskets hauling trailers below what the truck is rated for. One of these fellows is on his THIRD set of HG at 110K hauling a bobcat that his 97 PSD hauled for 235K and never had a problem!! Exact same machine exact same trailer, new truck no mods at all 3 SETS of headgaskets. In my opinion Ford should buyback these vehicles or offer free headgaskets for the life of the vehicle. It is not my Friends fault they bought a poorly designed engine, but now he is over 100K and I dont know if everyone here knows this but a HG job on a 6.0 calls for 20 flag hours!! who the heck can afford that every 40 thousand miles at $88.00 an hr. We are putting studs and gaskets on it for him now luckily for him he has some good friends that are willing to help him out. I am sorry for the rant but some of my friends were tried and true Ford guys that had no problems with the 7.3 and just got hammered when they spent 40K on a truck that Ford told them was so much better than what they had. But there is a bright side, everyone I know is moving to the Cummins side one way or another, either by trading in or converting the Ford they have. Amazing that Ford is convincing people that their and Navistars faulty design problems were caused by the aftermarket sector.
01-24-2007 | 08:05 PM
#17
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From: Kalifornia
That`s Hilarius. Let`s blame the aftermarket for our warranty claim costs....
Now you know why i stopped turning a wrench 2 years ago.
Everyone blames something other than what the real problem is, and yet they continue to ask Why, Why, is this happening....
Stupid.
So why are they suing International/Navistar then.........
What a load of
Now you know why i stopped turning a wrench 2 years ago.
Everyone blames something other than what the real problem is, and yet they continue to ask Why, Why, is this happening....
Stupid.So why are they suing International/Navistar then.........
What a load of
01-24-2007 | 08:29 PM
#18
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Even if the aftermarket isn't responsible for 2/3's of their warranty costs, and I really doubt that it is, what is the matter with Ford making sure that they know if you've been running aftermarket programming?
As long as they don't void your warranty on a false alarm, what's the matter with them knowing? If you run aftermarket programmers they shouldn't be responsible for your warranty; is this what you guys are having problems with?
As long as they don't void your warranty on a false alarm, what's the matter with them knowing? If you run aftermarket programmers they shouldn't be responsible for your warranty; is this what you guys are having problems with?
01-24-2007 | 08:39 PM
#19
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From: Kansas City Kansas
Even if the aftermarket isn't responsible for 2/3's of their warranty costs, and I really doubt that it is, what is the matter with Ford making sure that they know if you've been running aftermarket programming?
As long as they don't void your warranty on a false alarm, what's the matter with them knowing? If you run aftermarket programmers they shouldn't be responsible for your warranty; is this what you guys are having problems with?
As long as they don't void your warranty on a false alarm, what's the matter with them knowing? If you run aftermarket programmers they shouldn't be responsible for your warranty; is this what you guys are having problems with?
01-24-2007 | 09:43 PM
#20
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From: INDIANA
I am surrounded by 6.0's here Indy, well there made here. All the guys make me laugh. They bought the best truck and are up on a high horse. If I roll up to a Cummins and give it a little smoke they almost always give a rev or race back, but if its a ford 90% of the time they do nothing or floor it (all you here is whistle) thats when I hit the go pedel and show him how the old dodges can still pull out the whoopEdited by Moderator
01-24-2007 | 09:44 PM
#21
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From: Buffalo, NY
01-24-2007 | 10:13 PM
#23
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From: Between SC,TN,VA!!!
Fords problem started with the 6.0! There have been too many claims, court dates, and ****** off guys and gals sitting on the side of the road because of that engine than any engine ever before. Ford also has had problems with there design on plug gap tolerances and plug threads in there V8's. That was almost the total downfall of FORD right there. The problem is knowing when to say Hey, we made a huge mistake and we are going to fix it! Please give us some time to correct the problem's at hand and we will be true to our customers that bought our products because of a history/reputation that we once had. Now the issue on Programmers ='s Heck yea FORD needs to have the proactive mindset to try and stop the guys that blow there engine up and remove all of the aftermarket parts and get it replaced at no cost to themselves. These people deserve to be responsible for there actions. FORD is doing the right thing for there business in doing this. When will Dodge, and GM follow??????? Who knows? But I will bet that it will be sooner than later!
JB
JB
01-24-2007 | 11:01 PM
#24
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From: Corpus Christi, Tx.
Guys, take note what Ford has declared "emissions equipment" and is not open for modifications.. Sounds like the govt(epa) has probably got F over the barrel about permitting ANY emission mods for the LIFE of the vehicle
, not just the warranty period
...
That is probably a harbinger of coming intrusive government environmental regulations we'll all have to face regardless of brand of vehicle or engine!
(Some diesel-hating EPA pinhead that rides around on a hydrogen fueled skateboard is probably proud of himself for helping to include every little bit of anti-diesel "gotcha" in the new enviro regs.)
Macjazzy, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but there is a thread on here about a Ford maintenance orientation video for the new 6.4 (which I never could get to play right).
The start of the video had a pretty good front view of the 6.4 engine. OMG! Where is the engine??? All I see is stuff bolted ontop of other stuff that is bolted all OVER the block! I recognized the front crank pulley and what is probably the water pump pulley and maybe one valve cover, but that is one mass of parts and hardware! Granted, this is just the engine, and all that emissions aftertreatment CRAP is still behind it yet!
How are you guys going to be able to handle it all?
That truck is going to be SO bloomin' expensive to get worked on(post warranty) that they are going to be entirely unaffordable by the average Joe
.
Boy, oh boy... I sure hope Cummins(and DC) doesn't have to go down this path quite like F is going...
Man! this makes me proud to have an old '97 12v all the more! I may have to give it another paint job soon to keep the sheetmetal preserved.
K
, not just the warranty period ... That is probably a harbinger of coming intrusive government environmental regulations we'll all have to face regardless of brand of vehicle or engine!
(Some diesel-hating EPA pinhead that rides around on a hydrogen fueled skateboard is probably proud of himself for helping to include every little bit of anti-diesel "gotcha" in the new enviro regs.)
Macjazzy, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but there is a thread on here about a Ford maintenance orientation video for the new 6.4 (which I never could get to play right).
The start of the video had a pretty good front view of the 6.4 engine. OMG!
Where is the engine??? All I see is stuff bolted ontop of other stuff that is bolted all OVER the block! I recognized the front crank pulley and what is probably the water pump pulley and maybe one valve cover, but that is one mass of parts and hardware! Granted, this is just the engine, and all that emissions aftertreatment CRAP is still behind it yet! How are you guys going to be able to handle it all?
That truck is going to be SO bloomin' expensive to get worked on(post warranty) that they are going to be entirely unaffordable by the average Joe
. Boy, oh boy... I sure hope Cummins(and DC) doesn't have to go down this path quite like F is going...
Man! this makes me proud to have an old '97 12v all the more! I may have to give it another paint job soon to keep the sheetmetal preserved.
K
01-24-2007 | 11:03 PM
#25
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From: Corpus Christi, Tx.
01-24-2007 | 11:03 PM
#26
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Diesel modifications has always been against emissions and has always voided your warranty. Nothing's changed, except that they might be more sensitive about the warranty issue now, which I can't blame them. I'm concerned, yet also highly skeptical, about Ford somehow designing an engine that can't be programmed by the aftermarket. One rule of thumb is anything the OEM can do, the aftermarket can do better...
I do think that emissions will end up cracking down on Diesel hotrods, but I'm more concerned about what they'll do to the actual hotrods than what they'll do to the brand new trucks. In my book, the hotrodders are the guys with over 400 horsepower that could start getting fined and ticketed to oblivion. (Or just start getting smoged, which would be really close to the same thing.) Smog checks are what I think can bury the hobby really quickly.
Just because the new trucks have been getting more powerful every year doesn't mean that they haven't also been meeting the EPA's codes too; emissions have been decreased just as consistently as power has been increased.
Really, I don't think that the EPA really has a leg to stand on if they accuse the OEM's from looking the other way with aftermarket programmers. I'm sure that the OEM's hate the programmers, and all the (what they perceive as)ripped off warranty work, more than anything else.
I really don't see anything happening as long as smog checks aren't required. New engines will get much more complicated and expensive (look at the 6.4 liter!), but most states don't have anything preventing you from just voiding your warranty, ripping out the catalytic convertor and EGR, and installing whatever programmer you want. That's what's really amazing about the entire thing.
I do think that emissions will end up cracking down on Diesel hotrods, but I'm more concerned about what they'll do to the actual hotrods than what they'll do to the brand new trucks. In my book, the hotrodders are the guys with over 400 horsepower that could start getting fined and ticketed to oblivion. (Or just start getting smoged, which would be really close to the same thing.) Smog checks are what I think can bury the hobby really quickly.
Just because the new trucks have been getting more powerful every year doesn't mean that they haven't also been meeting the EPA's codes too; emissions have been decreased just as consistently as power has been increased.
Really, I don't think that the EPA really has a leg to stand on if they accuse the OEM's from looking the other way with aftermarket programmers. I'm sure that the OEM's hate the programmers, and all the (what they perceive as)ripped off warranty work, more than anything else.
I really don't see anything happening as long as smog checks aren't required. New engines will get much more complicated and expensive (look at the 6.4 liter!), but most states don't have anything preventing you from just voiding your warranty, ripping out the catalytic convertor and EGR, and installing whatever programmer you want. That's what's really amazing about the entire thing.
This man makes some VERY good points and I think we should all take notice. I also believe 'hot rodding' diesels as we know it is over for at least the interim. I have owned many diesel powered vehicles including 5 Dodge Cummins trucks and have seen the incremental changes. Now.............we have some MAJOR changes and big electronics controlling expensive hardware. Oh, and a 'new' fuel.
For those who equate this to the end of the muscle car era, I say this is comparing apples to oranges. The diesel principle is very different. We make power by radical differences in air/fuel ratios. We don't deal with stoichiometric like the gasoline engine. Think about it.
Here is a good example: look at how the old trucks can very easily achieve 25+ mpg and blow black smoke in the process. How can this be??
As for those babies that have cried about warranty after modifying and trying to deceive the dealer. I have no sympathy. Bite the bullet, be a man and pay. I actually chose this and I have paid. I have NO regrets.
I cherish my two trucks I currently own. My '05 sits in the garage and will most of the time. I will purchase a third if money permits.
Take care of your truck.
01-24-2007 | 11:27 PM
#27
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From: Red Deer, Alberta Canada
01-25-2007 | 06:41 AM
#29
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It is the norm to have 6.0's totally stock with blown headgaskets. I know plenty of guys with BONE STOCK 6.0 powerstrokes that blew headgaskets hauling trailers below what the truck is rated for. One of these fellows is on his THIRD set of HG at 110K hauling a bobcat that his 97 PSD hauled for 235K and never had a problem!! Exact same machine exact same trailer, new truck no mods at all 3 SETS of headgaskets. In my opinion Ford should buyback these vehicles or offer free headgaskets for the life of the vehicle. It is not my Friends fault they bought a poorly designed engine, but now he is over 100K and I dont know if everyone here knows this but a HG job on a 6.0 calls for 20 flag hours!! who the heck can afford that every 40 thousand miles at $88.00 an hr. We are putting studs and gaskets on it for him now luckily for him he has some good friends that are willing to help him out. I am sorry for the rant but some of my friends were tried and true Ford guys that had no problems with the 7.3 and just got hammered when they spent 40K on a truck that Ford told them was so much better than what they had. But there is a bright side, everyone I know is moving to the Cummins side one way or another, either by trading in or converting the Ford they have. Amazing that Ford is convincing people that their and Navistars faulty design problems were caused by the aftermarket sector.
Now, here's my problem with that statement. First off, this fella went through 3 sets of head gaskets. I think after the seconds set I would have went elsewhere to get my ride fixed. Also, the 6.0's are notorious pukers so it sure makes you wonder if the tech that fixed his truck did the head gaskets just because the truck puked. Rumor has it that a few dealerships got in trouble for charging Ford for repairs that weren't necessary. Shoot, how much labor money is involved in a head gasket repair on a 6.0? I bet it ain't cheap. It's a shame that there are crooks out there and it's a bigger shame that our beloved aftermarket is going away because of them.
01-25-2007 | 07:02 AM
#30
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Guys, take note what Ford has declared "emissions equipment" and is not open for modifications.. Sounds like the govt(epa) has probably got F over the barrel about permitting ANY emission mods for the LIFE of the vehicle , not just the warranty period.
That is probably a harbinger of coming intrusive government environmental regulations we'll all have to face regardless of brand of vehicle or engine!
K
, not just the warranty period.That is probably a harbinger of coming intrusive government environmental regulations we'll all have to face regardless of brand of vehicle or engine!
K
In the Federal Government's eyes, it is just as illegal to remove the muffler from my stock 1990 Dodge as it would be to remove the EGR valve from a Duramax or the particulate trap from a 6.4 liter. And it will continue to be illegal for the life of the vehicle. However, the law is totally unenforced. Here is an article on what is legal and not; the overly intrusive government regulation has been around for decades; none of that has changed.