HOHN

The mpg savings come from being able to run lower levels of EGR.

Without SCR, the amount of EGR being pumped back into the engine is considerable.

There won't be a HD diesel engine made past 2010 without EGR-- by anyone. You simply can't have reasonable urea consumption without EGR.

Doing both EGR and SCR is the best way to get the benefits of each while minimizing the negatives-- it's the best balance.

HOHN

On the contrary, we ARE scrambling BECAUSE we have pride in our work. The easiest thing in the world would be to choose the SCR and then put out a half-hearted effort whether it was ready or not. That's what Ford does-- NOT Cummins!

I get the impression that you just don't understand the current state of the diesel regulations. The EPA has declared that if your engines don't meet 2010 regs, you can't sell them-- period! NO longer can you do what Cat did with the '02 regs and just pay a huge fine on each engine sold. Nope-- you can't even sell one at all. You can't even do what Cat did with the '07 engines and build a bunch in advance to sell later after the EPA shuts down your production line (as far as I know).

Cat has abandoned the 2010 on hwy diesel engine market. You will not be able to buy a Cat engine in ANY HD truck that is 2010 compliant. Their mismanagement of the EPA strategy forced them to exit the market. On the contrary, Cummins has been growing bigger and stronger than ever in the emissions era.

Anyway, SCR is honestly not that hard to integrate. Cummins is already doing SCR in other engines quite successfully and SCR actually makes the number of components on the engine fewer.

You apparently don't understand the virtue of selling 2010-compliant engines early because you don't know how the carbon credit scheme the EPA has set up works. When you sell engines that are cleaner than they have to be, you get 80% of the difference in emissions in a "credit account" that you can later "spend" to sell engines that aren't necessarily as clean.

Read up on it. Think about it. Then you'll understand partially why SCR is a good deal, and why Cummins would have been foolish NOT to embrace it if was even remotely attainable.

Honestly, you guys will look back in 2011 and be recalling my words telling you that Urea is a non-issue. It reasonably convenient, reliable, and helps MPG significantly compared to other emissions strategies. We can probably save some larger trucking companies up to $2K in fuel costs per truck per year! That's a huge amount.

When SCR was only 60% efficient and fuel as $3/gal the calculus is VERY different than when SCR is 90% efficient and fuel is $5/gal.

Bravo for Cummins having the courage and agility to recognize the need to change and act accordingly.

Yes, I'm biased in that I work at Cummins as an engineer on heavy duty on-hwy engines, so take it for what you will.

cbrahs

Justin,

not to stir things up but please explain to everyone what happens when the urea tank is empty. IIRC it sets a CEL and slowly reduces power. this is fine to remind the knucklehead driver that is not paying attention but what if you have an issue and are out in the middle of nowhere with no way to fix it on the side of the road. Detroit with their introduction of the DD15 motor (all it is is a HD common rail motor & they think they invented it) and they have been having real issues with that motor and they claim to already be 2010 compliant. Please correct me if I am wrong, i appreciate your input and expertise.

purduepurdy

Hohn, what about their off highway trucks? I think the only reason Cummins has a off highway program is due to all the credits they have built on 5.9s and 6.7s. You have to respect CAT dude even though they lost alot of on- highway business. Off highway they shine with their 3500s and soon to be C175s. Plus they sell a crap ton overseas where they arent burdened with emissions.

Urea is a major pain also and it might be more of a burden than you think. Storage, filling it up(most people are too lazy to even fill their own washer fluid) and what about urea heaters in cold applications like off highway, rail, and marine apps. Urea begins to crystallize at 12 degrees F. Nothing like having to supply high current DC, 120, or 220 to keep it from freezing 24/7.

HOHN

What happens when the Urea tank is empty is between the truck maker and the EPA. Most companies are just going to a de-rate (a DRASTIC de-rate, IIRC). In some cases an empty tank might limit you to 5mph!

A 20gal urea tank is enough to go 1000miles, so I don't see why running the urea tank dry is such a big concern. Heck, a dispatcher could send a guy on a run with a full urea tank and he often wouldn't have to touch the urea tank before he got back.

megacabdad

I understand. What I/We want is a permanent solution to these EPA mandates. Not something that engineers get a tax credit for. I know that your hands are tied.
We don't want something that has huge power potential, that is detuned enormously, with a bunch of crap that is expensive as heck to buy and service, just because that's what you are supposed to do.
We as the consumer are getting screwed by buying 40-50K trucks, and having to be guinea pigs with your experiments, and people wonder why no one is buying dealers offerings off the lot.
We will keep the junk we have because it is almost if not all the way paid off, and all we have to do is put fuel in it and pay for regular maintenance.
Your over engineered equipment will not find a place in this economy as long as it doesn't justify our hard earned money, plain and simple.

HOHN

See, that's the thing. CAT is booming for now, but ignoring the future. How long do you think it will be before emissions diesels are the only ones available? Smog regs are hitting everything from on-hwy to power generation to ag equipment. If CA wants to regulate emissions of lawn mowers (and they are)-- can other engines be far behind in Western worlds? The bottom line is that emissions are the rule, not the exception, and if CAT is counting on avoiding emissions to stay solvent, they will go bust and companies like Komatsu will move into their market.

Cat lost on-hwy business because their ACERT engines were junk-- the Freightliner CEO as much as said so publicly!

Cat is booming because there is a huge demand for their equipment, not for their engines, per se.

If Cummins can partner with Komatsu and others to crack the off-road market where Cat has been able to dominate, then look out-- CAT will have some very tough times indeed.

I personally think CAT needs more visionary leadership, and they could be even MORE dominant off road if they had the right people making the big decisions.

But that last statement is just amateurish speculation on my part, I'd REALLY have to do a LOT more homework to have a comprehensive assessment of CAT's products and its future.

The irony is that CAT is partnering with International for this new heavy truck for off-road apps.

Guess who makes over 45% of the engines in on-hwy International trucks?

Jeff in TD

Interesting.

Though I'm sure there may be some growing pains, I don't see a reason to say the sky is falling when it comes to urea engines. Maybe they will be fine.

It does make me wonder, though, what the EPA will come up with for their next, stricter mandate.

purduepurdy

First off, cat will be crazy to let cummins put an engine in their truck that they would be building with navistar. They wouldnt even let a contractor use john deere equipment near their facility in lafayette. I wouldnt call their upper management totally ignorant. They have pushed to form a global market and have invested over a billion dollars in their illinois facilities when the dollar has weakened.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=92926561

Cat has emissions programs. I should know, I'm in one so dont count them out. I just work on programs that are little over powered for on highway apps.

torquefan

I'm worried about where we will purchase this urea. Will it be sold at the pumps, wherever diesel is sold? Will it be another $5 per gallon, just like diesel? It would then be $400 to fill up the truck, instead of $200.

cbrahs

i understand that the truck stops ect will have gallon jugs available just like fuel treatment or oil jugs and the price isn't too bad.

HOHN

I take some solace in the fact that after the radical emissions changes of the 70s and 80s, the gassers have been pretty even-keeled.

I think the diesel market is having it's torture time like the gassers did back then-- I hope then it will be stable for awhile.

jh

MikeyB

Urea = Ammonia + water.

MikeyB

apwatson50

Haven't they been using urea in Europe for some time now? Can't be all that bad.

By the way, who makes these SCR catalysts?

Aaron

kawi600

yeah I dunno.. I see every step of the emissions technology as another step away from being able to cheaply maintain a vehicle after the warranty expires.
Too much electronic stuff and other sensors and things to go bad. And you need complex tools and test equipment the average driveway mechanic probably cant get access to.
Im also keeping my truck for a long time. Wonder how long before the environmentalists start following me around with cameras when I accelerate onto the interstate? =(
It is neat stuff.. just too darn expensive and complex. new-ish vehicle owners out of warranty get a good kick in the jimmy when something complex breaks.
I think my truck was the last year before EGR started! heh heh heh..