KATOOM

With fuel prices rising faster than I can afford these days I have been all ears to alternative fuels. I have done some reasearch on bio-diesel but it seems to have a few drawbacks. 1) You have to find someone that sells the unit and info to make it, which isnt cheap, and 2) You have to get the raw material from local restaurants. Now I dont know how many of you have ever worked at a restaurant but I have and that stuff is a thick, gooey, stinky mess that you dont want to get on you or inside your truck. And usually its keep in 50 gallon drums or large rectangular bins that are lifted into trucks with a hoist. So I dont really see where or how you are supposed to get enough dirty oil to make it worth your while and stay clean or where you are going to store all that smelly garbage while you refine it? They keep it behind restaurants for a reason. I have also heard that it gells very easily since its vegetable based and I know someone that drives for Interstate and they are instructed NOT to ever use it in the company trucks, for whatever reason. Oh yea, your truck smells like a french fryer while your cruising down the road.
Next, then I was told by someone that they go down to their local transmission shop and take the auto tranny fluid for free, sift it through a fine filter untill its clean then pour it in their Cummins. Said if there is a problem then he puts a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank and all is good. Now I dont know how good that stuff can be since it has detergents in it. But like I said earlier, I will listen to just about anything if it means saving money.

torquefan

Do a search on biodiesel, you will find lots of good info. Try www.biolyle.com or
www.journeytoforever.org You don't really need the huge, expensive equipment until you get really serious. I have been planning to make some, and I even got hold of about 20 gal. of used veg oil from my friend with a Chinese restaurant. Asian food restaurants are supposed to yield the best quality oil, and fast food burger chains are the worst. The most expensive ingredient, I believe, is the methanol. After the refining process, the oil is quite harmless to the engine. Using straight waste oil (not refining it to biodiesel) can be done, but it requires modifications to your vehicle.

From what I've read here, ATF shouldn't be used as it has additives to keep it from burning completely and would cause trouble. I saw a thread here recently stating many people would add a couple gallons of used engine oil to a full tank of fuel, and nobody has mentioned any problems. I wouldn't use it straight though. Hope this helps.

Dr. Evil

The friction modifiers in atf would not be good for your injector pump. The days of dumping ATF in the tank are long gone. Years ago, I believe ATF was completely different and Injector pumps didnt have the close tolerances they have nowadays.

The 12V's can run on a variety of fuels.

akghound

I know, I know ... Here I am again pushing WVO. It is not really like you painted it to be, I have run it for a year now in a 96 without any major problems. If you really are interested check out these sites; http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb....51&f=159605551 at least read the first two stickys at the top.
Then look at: http://www.frybrid.com/test.htm There is a real good forum here.
You can always email questions to me, I have some schematics for a 12 valver, just ask and I'll send them on to ya. e-address in profile.
Ken Gardner

MobyDodge

OK, so I plan to filter waste fryer oil thru a 2 micron filter and mix it in with the petro diesel in my tank. I haven't figured out a good ratio yet, but each gallon of fryer oil I can use is a gallon less petro diesel I have to buy.


I'll keep an eye on the pyrometer while I expereiment.

Anyone have any suggestions about a safe ratio of petro diesel to fryer oil?

Any cautions to look for?

The truck is a 2001 Dodge/Cummins.

RIPnROAR

DOE ( Dept. of Energy ) has been doing bio-diesel research for sometime now.

Excellent page on their website.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

This is a piece from it:

The solvent property of biodiesel can cause other fuel-system problems. Biodiesel may be incompatible with the seals used in the fuel systems of older vehicles and machinery, necessitating the replacement of those parts if biodiesel blends are used. The initial use of B20 or B100 in any vehicle or machine requires care. Petroleum diesel forms deposits in vehicular fuel systems, and because biodiesel can loosen those deposits, they can migrate and clog fuel lines and filters.

akghound

I don't believe this is a very good idea. The cold VO even though it is mixed with diesel can quickly distroy your engine. Also, on that truck I think there is an issue with the lift pump and the thicker fuel it will be pumping. Is it a VP44 injector pump? If so you will definately have lift pump trouble and that can KILL the IP real fast.
Why not put a heated two tank setup on this truck and advoid the troubles associated with burning cold VO?
Just my thoughts, but I think you need to some more research on this idea.
Ken

Scotty

I am putting a circulating coolant heater on my truck when I flush the radiator this weekend. I am also looking at running tubing from the trucks coolant system into the aux tank in the bed and using it for WVO that will then be pumped to the factory tank to blend with the pump diesel. There is a 1500 watt circulating heater I am going to get that runs off 110. Then once the truck is running, warm coolant will continue to flow through the tubing into the aux tank to keep it from gelling or clouding.

I found a fitting that will screw into my passenger side filler neck that I can put the tubing to. I contemplated lifting the aux tank and put a couple of battery blankets under it but that would only help when they are plugged in.

Back to the lab.

five20too

I found this site that claims similar success with cooking oil except not having to go through the bio-diesel stages. It seems alot easier, but then again, could easier really be better? Any feedback would be appreciated.

kd460

Bio is not that hard. The equipment is not that expensive, the process can be done in 24 hours or less from start to finish. The most expensive component is the methanol. My cost is about 80 cents a gallon to make.

My processor is an old 100lb. propane tank. My wash vessel is a plastic drum, my dry vessel is a plastic drum. I use a Harbour frieght pump, some metal pipe, fittings and valves. If don't or can't weld, an electric hot water heater can be used as a processor.

I'm not knocking WVO, but it is a little more complicated than you may think. I agree, viscosity is an issue, and injection pumps do not like thick oil, good advice. Filtering to 2 microns will require a serois pump, and you filter will become clogged in short order. Most who use wvo use a series of filters, and some heat. The problem with heat is, during filtering, if warm, the oil gets thinner, and will flow thru the filter better, but when you get to ambient temps ahain, guess what, it won't flow becouse it is now thicker.

If you run wvo, go with the tried and proven method of 2 tank system, using a heat exchanger in the secondary tank so the coolant from the engine will warm the oil, which reduces the viscosity. You still have to filter it, and others have better info than I do for this.

Heating the oil prior to leaving the house seems a hassle, when you can start the truck, after a few minutes of warm coolant warming the oil, switch tank over to wvo, run that till about 5 minutes before you get to your destination, and switch back to reg. diesel.

BTW, when I make bio, other then pouring the oil thru a window screen when I collect it, the only filtering I do is when it gets pumped into my truck. I use an el cheapo automotive spin on oil filter and that is it! That oil filter has lasted thru countless gallons of bio. The entire biodiesel process cleans the oil really well.

One last thing, the glycerin that you get from the transesterification process (the left over waste) is nasty looking stuff, if you looked at a bucket of this you would say wow that goes into my engine? The answer is no if you run bio, yes if you run wvo.

Don't want to get into a wvo vs. biodiesel debate, but I really did my homework on this for months and decided bio was the way to go. Ever try to sell a truck that was converted to run on veg oil? The person buying will look at that as say hmmmm.

Also see this thread for lots of links:https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ad.php?t=76617

five20too

Hey kd460, this is the website I was talking about. Let me know what you think as it seems you have alot of experience in this area: http://dieselsecret.com/index.htm

infidel

I fully agree with you kd, especially running WVO though a 24 valve's weak fuel system.
Even with 2 micron filtering there are dissolved nasties like sugar and salt that will make it though. Once these residues meet the heat of combustion I'm sure they take on a different form that is most likely unburnable. Making carmel from heating sugar comes to mind. A rig may run just fine on WVO for tens of thousands of miles but I feel it will seriously reduce engine longevity in the end.
Processing the WVO into BD really isn't that big of a deal.

kd460

OK, I'm not gonna bash dieselsecret. But, other biodieseler's with much more experience than I, (some are chemical engineer's), don't have a favorable opinion.

My question is, if it's so great, why don't they produce the fuel and sell it? Seems like they would make more money doing that then selling the secret. Seems like I read the chemical resembles "moth *****", but since it is a "secret", I don't know.

Once again, if I understand the process with diesel secret, none of the free fatty acids, glycerins, and as Infidel mentions, salts, sugars, etc get removed. It all gets sent into your combustion chamber. Nasty stuff, coking up the rings, build up in the combustion chamber, etc. Not to mention moisture in the oil, which I agree, can be removed, but, the process of prepping wvo is so close to bio, that one or two more easy steps and you have bio.

Bio cleans the fuel system, this is a fact. WVO can leave deposits in your engine, this is a concern. Many who burn wvo also run bio from time to time to help "clean" . What does that tell you?

Once again, not bashing wvo, many run it, and have no problems. I am not that brave with my truck or car. If I had an old tractor or say an old diesel beater car, sure I would have fun with it and give it a try. I would never run say a 50/50 mix of wvo and #2 by just dumping it in the tank. I would go full bore and heat the oil prior to use using a 2 tank system. But again, this would be on a spare vehicle that I did not care much about.

Hope this clears a few things up, there are MANY others out there that know TONS more than I do about all of this. They have been there and done that. The information is out there. I like to take their word for it, and benifit from their experiences (be it positive or negative). Kevin

Stamey

KD460,
Tell me about your wash process. I am currently doing 3-4 washes, until the water comes out clean/clear, and over a period of time that it takes 2-3 days to do a batch. First wash, 6 hours, second wash 2-4 hours, third wash, at least 2 hours. Drying takes about 2 to 8 hours. Due to the long periods between required action by me, this process currently takes about 2-3 hours of actual labor, over 3 days.
The fuel is beautiful when it comes out, but I am looking for ways to speed up the process if I can, with minimal sacrifice to quality.

Thanks,
Chris

kd460

Stamey, sorry for the slow response. I'll try to summarize:

The freshly made bio first gets the glycerine drained out of the processor.

Then with the bio still warm from being processed, it gets pumped into my wash barrel. My wash barrel has an EQUAL amount of hot water (same amount as the quantity of bio) sitting in it before I pump the fresh bio into it.

Get the water as hot as possible. If you have a metal wash barrel, then get close to boiling. If plastic like mine, I get it to temp where the plastic feels like it won't take any more heat .

The bio actually gets pumped into the water, below the water line. I have a piece of pipe connected to the hose that carries the fuel from the processor to the wash barrell. That pipe outlet rests on the bottom of my wash barrell, I then slowly pump the bio into the hot water. I have a translucent wash barrel, so I can see the globules of fuel rising from the bottom of the barrel (the pipe outlet) to the top of the water level.

Like I said, I do it slowly (10 to 15 minutes to pump about 20 gallons). When the last of the fuel is in, I let things settle for about 15 to 20 minutes, then drain off the water. You just saved yourself a days worth of bubble washing.

After the water is drained, I mist wash using a "FOGGIT" brand mister head. It is a 1/2 gallon per minute mister. It hooks right up to the end of a garden hose. I have plans to hook it up to an electric sprinkler valve and a timer, but not yet. I mist wash for about 1/2 to 2/3rds the volume of the bio, then shut off the mister.

I let things settle for about a 1/2 hour, and then repeat once or twice. You now saved another day of bubble washing.

I mist again, but this time I leave the water in there, and I then bubblewash overnight. The next morning, the fuel is dark, but cloudy from holding water. The wash water is usually clean, if not I mist one more time, then fire up the heating element, turn the bubblers off, and let things get up to about 150 degrees.

I then take the hot fuel off the water by using a standpipe (the standpipe is part of my wash barrell), and the fuel gets pumped into my dry barrell.

With the fuel still hot, I circulate the fuel (pump it) thru a filter and a sprinkler head inside the barrell. I have a fan blowing air into the barrell. The air passing over the airborne bio (airborne from the spinkler head), drys the fuel very fast. It also gets continously filtered by use of a cheap autozone autovalue oil filter (part of the circulating circuit). The fuel constantly gets pumped for awhile, exposing it to the air and the fan. I like to run the pump till the fuel is at room temp. It is usually clear within the first 30 minutes of pumping, but I like to make sure it gets to room temp incase the cloudiness returns (fuel that still has water in it will go cloudy at room temp, but look clear at higher temps-same thing for wax crystals or tallows, will be clear at elevated temps cause they are melted, but cloudy at room temp cause they are now solid)

Lets put it this way, I made a batch of fuel friday night, put it into the wash barrell saturday morning, and that fuel is crystal clear, sitting in my drying barrell, ready to go into the truck. That was at about 1200 today.

The process can go even faster if you keep the mist water hot, and the oil hot. You can knock about 12 hours off if you bring the water to a boil while the bio is sitting on top of it (kind of a boiling bubblewash), but, that takes allot of energy, and, my barrell is plastic, so I stay away from getting it to boil.

Well, I thought I would be brief, sorry I was not. HTH, Kevin

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I use a 5% prewash before I drain off my glycerine, that saves allot of time and reduces liklihood of emulsion. I will be switching to potassium soon, and that will help even more