Injector Issues - CAN they be resolved??
09-20-2006, 10:59 PM
#31
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also, regarding the injectors: The 04.5 model changed injectors. Does this problem affect all gen 3 equally, or is it more of a problem on the higher performance 04.5 injectors?
09-22-2006, 04:04 PM
#33
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Going to try to bring my personal fresh perspective to this injector issue. As i have installed a few myself in trucks that had bad injectors when i did it for a living.....and lest we forget the Duramax....which runs pretty much the exact same injector and the issues they have been through (AND have extended a 2 year wnty on them IIRC)..... here is my take on it......
High Pressure Common Rail Technology is an infant compared to other forms of diesel injection. These injectors are trying to handle pressures unheard of 5-10 years ago in the light duty market. I think things will smooth out with time. Right now, i bet some people at DC, Bosch, and Cummins are playing the blame game, hence the filter requirements keep dropping. Guess where this ultimately lays the responsibility? In the end users lap! I don’t want to say they are grasping at straws here, but I bet a few are leaking info that is premature in nature to quell public grumblings. Again, guessing here…..
Remember the Madza Wankle in the early RX-7's? When they worked, they worked well! BUT issues with design halted its production. Fast Fwd a few years......Boom! The engine is back on the market in the RX-8....and I personally don’t hear much trouble with them like the early versions. Granted i don’t follow them very close....unless they come out with a diesel version.....Dang that would be cool! A Diesel Wankle! haha......Sorry....digressing here......But anyway......i don’t see the HPCR getting yanked off the market….but I bet we will see refinements made to make the system work better with out issue. But I guess my over all point will be time will tell.....and i only see good things coming out of it. All these issues (Or lack there of) will seem small in the long run. Just sucks to have to deal with them…….but what does this 2nd gen’er know?
High Pressure Common Rail Technology is an infant compared to other forms of diesel injection. These injectors are trying to handle pressures unheard of 5-10 years ago in the light duty market. I think things will smooth out with time. Right now, i bet some people at DC, Bosch, and Cummins are playing the blame game, hence the filter requirements keep dropping. Guess where this ultimately lays the responsibility? In the end users lap! I don’t want to say they are grasping at straws here, but I bet a few are leaking info that is premature in nature to quell public grumblings. Again, guessing here…..
Remember the Madza Wankle in the early RX-7's? When they worked, they worked well! BUT issues with design halted its production. Fast Fwd a few years......Boom! The engine is back on the market in the RX-8....and I personally don’t hear much trouble with them like the early versions. Granted i don’t follow them very close....unless they come out with a diesel version.....Dang that would be cool! A Diesel Wankle! haha......Sorry....digressing here......But anyway......i don’t see the HPCR getting yanked off the market….but I bet we will see refinements made to make the system work better with out issue. But I guess my over all point will be time will tell.....and i only see good things coming out of it. All these issues (Or lack there of) will seem small in the long run. Just sucks to have to deal with them…….but what does this 2nd gen’er know?
09-22-2006, 04:35 PM
#34
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Rotary is still very troublesome. They flood and foul plugs.Go out of town a few weeks and let sit in your garage and return and replace the motor due to the carbon tips have now seized etc.My wife handles Mazda(she's a service writer) I handled them for a while about 5 years back.Not a auto for the faint of heart to own. Besides WE were TOLD that the HPCR was used in EUROPE for some time before WE got it and it did great.Might have been Uganda.No it was Europe.Humm told by who?
The ONES trying to sell us a truck,yea thats the ticket.
The ONES trying to sell us a truck,yea thats the ticket.
09-22-2006, 04:39 PM
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See....that is what i get for shooting my mouth off without reseaching it much...made an assmption (Yeah i know what you get when you assume......but i dont want to pull a Big Blue......
) that they were better since they were back on the market...... My foot tastes funny! haha.......
) that they were better since they were back on the market...... My foot tastes funny! haha.......
09-22-2006, 06:14 PM
#36
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OK, here goes, AT about 27K lost on filter lift pump. Replaced with in tank unit. Had recently installed Quad towing box. No adjustments on box. About 1 month later lost CP3 acording to dealers mechanic (but he found the relief valve bad, second one and probably the CP3 wasn't bad but replaced anyways) but had recently removed box, too many questions. Infrequently have re-installed box (after sending box back to Quad for re-flash and checking calibration) to see if it is worth it and I am leaning more towards it is not worth it. Minor gains in fuel millage 1 or so and a little more power.
Ok after fiasco at Florida when dealer repairs came apart from CP3 replacement I have stayed mostly trouble free till August of this year at 49000 miles. Lost #4 injector last month filling crankcase with fuel. OK fixed, not happy but fixed, now took a weekend trip from Mich to Tenn and lost #6 injector on way home less than 30 days after first injector failure, again filling crankcase with fuel. Took till wed to get home but must say think I got lucky in a small town found a Dodge dealer and decent mechanic. I use Power service regularly along with Marvel Mystery Oil. Change fuel filters no more than 10K miles between changes. Change engine oil 7.5K regualrally only at the dealer as want records due to other problems to show regular care as recomended.
OK Bad Injector design or ......Why? Wish I knew, supposed to go to Chatanooga first of Oct and afraid to trust truck for the trip.
Why when 2 injectors have failed so far dosen't Dodge authorize replacing all and doing some type of pressure checks to make sure there isn't somethihg causing the problems. On the 2 I have had replaced the techs complained that they didn't even get paid for the time they spent cleaning and diagonosing let alone time to repair. Last repair only paid tech 2.3 hours.....and he did no cleaning of truck got it back just as oily as when I got there.
Ok after fiasco at Florida when dealer repairs came apart from CP3 replacement I have stayed mostly trouble free till August of this year at 49000 miles. Lost #4 injector last month filling crankcase with fuel. OK fixed, not happy but fixed, now took a weekend trip from Mich to Tenn and lost #6 injector on way home less than 30 days after first injector failure, again filling crankcase with fuel. Took till wed to get home but must say think I got lucky in a small town found a Dodge dealer and decent mechanic. I use Power service regularly along with Marvel Mystery Oil. Change fuel filters no more than 10K miles between changes. Change engine oil 7.5K regualrally only at the dealer as want records due to other problems to show regular care as recomended.
OK Bad Injector design or ......Why? Wish I knew, supposed to go to Chatanooga first of Oct and afraid to trust truck for the trip.
Why when 2 injectors have failed so far dosen't Dodge authorize replacing all and doing some type of pressure checks to make sure there isn't somethihg causing the problems. On the 2 I have had replaced the techs complained that they didn't even get paid for the time they spent cleaning and diagonosing let alone time to repair. Last repair only paid tech 2.3 hours.....and he did no cleaning of truck got it back just as oily as when I got there.
09-22-2006, 07:19 PM
#37
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I have these things in my hands literally all day. I honestly think I could take them apart in the dark. Cleaning, repairing, replacing parts, pressure testing, cycle testing, and pop testing.
I hate to be the guy who disagrees with most of what is written here on this thread so I wont. I will just list what I find daily, prehaps 40 times per week in CR injectors.
Never a bad solenoid
Never a heavily scored control rod or chamber
Never a bad armature
Very rarely a bad nozzle, unless they were honed too much and the seat was destroyed
***Often a pressure trace or etch in the nozzle to injector holder interface***
****Very often a bad control chamber sealing seat***
On a bad day I will get 4 and 5 bad injectors in a single set of 6. Average seems to be at least 3. All with toasted control chamber seats. Luckiliy I have the parts to replace or the technology to repair all this mess....
Since we dont have heavily scored control rods, we cant have lubrication problems. There is virtually no wear. Minor at best in high mileage engines on the rod. But there is almost always wear on the chamber seat. In a small part it is actual cuts in the seat from high pressure fuel passing acorss the seat upon injector opening with abrasive particles in the fuel. Most is caused from cavitation damage though. You could filter the fuel to perfect sub micron levels and you will still have cavitation damage though.
Most failures are in the 04.5 and up engine style. Why? IMO, it is the additional injection event. Additonal chances for cavitation to set up and damage things.
In a small part the fix is: Better filtration, but you will still have failures from cavitation.
Cavitation is a fact of life, but is attemped to be controlled with the proper accumulator volume VS what the injectors need to operate and the pressure waves that travel through the system. Changing any values in the system can either lesson or exaggerate the phenom. Sometimes I get sets of CR injectors that are not fully roached. Maybe they only leak 2000 PSI per second or less, but it is enough to change fuel economy and power output. They run, they make the truck go, but they are a hidden problem in many engines. Undiagnosed.
Finally any time you have a mass produced part, you will have tolerances that just cant always be perfect part to part. I have seen trace damage that was most certainly caused by a less than parallel surface or a chamber seat that was not hard enough or not machined right in the first place. Common material and workmanship issues.
Don~
Cleaning, repairing, replacing parts, pressure testing, cycle testing, and pop testing. I hate to be the guy who disagrees with most of what is written here on this thread so I wont. I will just list what I find daily, prehaps 40 times per week in CR injectors.
Never a bad solenoid
Never a heavily scored control rod or chamber
Never a bad armature
Very rarely a bad nozzle, unless they were honed too much and the seat was destroyed
***Often a pressure trace or etch in the nozzle to injector holder interface***
****Very often a bad control chamber sealing seat***
On a bad day I will get 4 and 5 bad injectors in a single set of 6. Average seems to be at least 3. All with toasted control chamber seats. Luckiliy I have the parts to replace or the technology to repair all this mess....
Since we dont have heavily scored control rods, we cant have lubrication problems. There is virtually no wear. Minor at best in high mileage engines on the rod. But there is almost always wear on the chamber seat. In a small part it is actual cuts in the seat from high pressure fuel passing acorss the seat upon injector opening with abrasive particles in the fuel. Most is caused from cavitation damage though. You could filter the fuel to perfect sub micron levels and you will still have cavitation damage though.
Most failures are in the 04.5 and up engine style. Why? IMO, it is the additional injection event. Additonal chances for cavitation to set up and damage things.
In a small part the fix is: Better filtration, but you will still have failures from cavitation.
Cavitation is a fact of life, but is attemped to be controlled with the proper accumulator volume VS what the injectors need to operate and the pressure waves that travel through the system. Changing any values in the system can either lesson or exaggerate the phenom. Sometimes I get sets of CR injectors that are not fully roached. Maybe they only leak 2000 PSI per second or less, but it is enough to change fuel economy and power output. They run, they make the truck go, but they are a hidden problem in many engines. Undiagnosed.
Finally any time you have a mass produced part, you will have tolerances that just cant always be perfect part to part. I have seen trace damage that was most certainly caused by a less than parallel surface or a chamber seat that was not hard enough or not machined right in the first place. Common material and workmanship issues.
Don~
09-22-2006, 10:47 PM
#38
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DON M -
So, what can I do with my 2006? So far, so good but I don't want to end up stuck in the middle of nowhere with a bad injector.
I run PS and MM in each tank and I did the vent tank MOD to prevent debris from entering the tank. I run a 7 micron fuel filter.
Is this a timebomb waiting to happen?
Also, is DONHOV having these problems due to the PRESSURE BOX he is running?
So, what can I do with my 2006? So far, so good but I don't want to end up stuck in the middle of nowhere with a bad injector.
I run PS and MM in each tank and I did the vent tank MOD to prevent debris from entering the tank. I run a 7 micron fuel filter.
Is this a timebomb waiting to happen?
Also, is DONHOV having these problems due to the PRESSURE BOX he is running?
09-23-2006, 07:08 AM
#39
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I have these things in my hands literally all day. I honestly think I could take them apart in the dark. Cleaning, repairing, replacing parts, pressure testing, cycle testing, and pop testing.
I hate to be the guy who disagrees with most of what is written here on this thread so I wont. I will just list what I find daily, prehaps 40 times per week in CR injectors.
Never a bad solenoid
Never a heavily scored control rod or chamber
Never a bad armature
Very rarely a bad nozzle, unless they were honed too much and the seat was destroyed
***Often a pressure trace or etch in the nozzle to injector holder interface***
****Very often a bad control chamber sealing seat***
On a bad day I will get 4 and 5 bad injectors in a single set of 6. Average seems to be at least 3. All with toasted control chamber seats. Luckiliy I have the parts to replace or the technology to repair all this mess....
Since we dont have heavily scored control rods, we cant have lubrication problems. There is virtually no wear. Minor at best in high mileage engines on the rod. But there is almost always wear on the chamber seat. In a small part it is actual cuts in the seat from high pressure fuel passing acorss the seat upon injector opening with abrasive particles in the fuel. Most is caused from cavitation damage though. You could filter the fuel to perfect sub micron levels and you will still have cavitation damage though.
Most failures are in the 04.5 and up engine style. Why? IMO, it is the additional injection event. Additonal chances for cavitation to set up and damage things.
In a small part the fix is: Better filtration, but you will still have failures from cavitation.
Cavitation is a fact of life, but is attemped to be controlled with the proper accumulator volume VS what the injectors need to operate and the pressure waves that travel through the system. Changing any values in the system can either lesson or exaggerate the phenom. Sometimes I get sets of CR injectors that are not fully roached. Maybe they only leak 2000 PSI per second or less, but it is enough to change fuel economy and power output. They run, they make the truck go, but they are a hidden problem in many engines. Undiagnosed.
Finally any time you have a mass produced part, you will have tolerances that just cant always be perfect part to part. I have seen trace damage that was most certainly caused by a less than parallel surface or a chamber seat that was not hard enough or not machined right in the first place. Common material and workmanship issues.
Don~
Cleaning, repairing, replacing parts, pressure testing, cycle testing, and pop testing. I hate to be the guy who disagrees with most of what is written here on this thread so I wont. I will just list what I find daily, prehaps 40 times per week in CR injectors.
Never a bad solenoid
Never a heavily scored control rod or chamber
Never a bad armature
Very rarely a bad nozzle, unless they were honed too much and the seat was destroyed
***Often a pressure trace or etch in the nozzle to injector holder interface***
****Very often a bad control chamber sealing seat***
On a bad day I will get 4 and 5 bad injectors in a single set of 6. Average seems to be at least 3. All with toasted control chamber seats. Luckiliy I have the parts to replace or the technology to repair all this mess....
Since we dont have heavily scored control rods, we cant have lubrication problems. There is virtually no wear. Minor at best in high mileage engines on the rod. But there is almost always wear on the chamber seat. In a small part it is actual cuts in the seat from high pressure fuel passing acorss the seat upon injector opening with abrasive particles in the fuel. Most is caused from cavitation damage though. You could filter the fuel to perfect sub micron levels and you will still have cavitation damage though.
Most failures are in the 04.5 and up engine style. Why? IMO, it is the additional injection event. Additonal chances for cavitation to set up and damage things.
In a small part the fix is: Better filtration, but you will still have failures from cavitation.
Cavitation is a fact of life, but is attemped to be controlled with the proper accumulator volume VS what the injectors need to operate and the pressure waves that travel through the system. Changing any values in the system can either lesson or exaggerate the phenom. Sometimes I get sets of CR injectors that are not fully roached. Maybe they only leak 2000 PSI per second or less, but it is enough to change fuel economy and power output. They run, they make the truck go, but they are a hidden problem in many engines. Undiagnosed.
Finally any time you have a mass produced part, you will have tolerances that just cant always be perfect part to part. I have seen trace damage that was most certainly caused by a less than parallel surface or a chamber seat that was not hard enough or not machined right in the first place. Common material and workmanship issues.
Don~
Excellent!!
I wonder if this is why Cummins is experimenting with zirconium ceramics for the injector chamber seats? Last year Design Fax had a article on this subject and Cummins is working on a solution.
MikeyB
09-23-2006, 07:12 AM
#40
Registered User
Don M, a question.
If I am following what you have posted above you feel that the injector events as well as cavitation is the major cause of injector failure? How does that effect the treory that increased pressure (boxes) is a contribuiting factor to the failures? Wouldn't more pressure (within safety limits) cause less cavitation by supplying more fuel? If not where is my thinking flawed. Not trying to support or defeat the box thory, just trying to understand whats going on
As a clairifaction I only ran box for a short time, and if this is what was causing the problem I can't believe that running the box for 30 days and then for 2 weeks after receiving it back from the manufacturer would/could cause this much trouble. Like I said, I am leaning more towards a problem with the truck, weather a design and/or mechanical problem or something else. Something causing spikes in rail pressure that is happening in the rail causing the injectors to fail. Remember the box was only on for a few weeks total time (maybe 6 or so weeks) of the 19 months I have owned the truck since new and if it can cause this much damage than maybe there is an issue with it but not what I believe. There may not be many of us but I have been reading aboung quite a few having injector problems including someone that has an 06 that just had all 6 changed due to problems of leaking etc.
If I am following what you have posted above you feel that the injector events as well as cavitation is the major cause of injector failure? How does that effect the treory that increased pressure (boxes) is a contribuiting factor to the failures? Wouldn't more pressure (within safety limits) cause less cavitation by supplying more fuel? If not where is my thinking flawed. Not trying to support or defeat the box thory, just trying to understand whats going on
As a clairifaction I only ran box for a short time, and if this is what was causing the problem I can't believe that running the box for 30 days and then for 2 weeks after receiving it back from the manufacturer would/could cause this much trouble. Like I said, I am leaning more towards a problem with the truck, weather a design and/or mechanical problem or something else. Something causing spikes in rail pressure that is happening in the rail causing the injectors to fail. Remember the box was only on for a few weeks total time (maybe 6 or so weeks) of the 19 months I have owned the truck since new and if it can cause this much damage than maybe there is an issue with it but not what I believe. There may not be many of us but I have been reading aboung quite a few having injector problems including someone that has an 06 that just had all 6 changed due to problems of leaking etc.
09-23-2006, 10:36 AM
#41
Registered User
This is good info. I am about tired of fighting with Dodge to get any warranty work done. People on here and where I live are having this issue. They always try to blame it on contaminated fuel or something else to wiggle out of the warranty work. They will even try the dreaded void your warranty crap. What a mess. This kills me. Every issue that is on this board about the 04.5 trucks I have had. My next issue will be the stupid injectors that I will have to deal with. I know I have an issue. You can rev up the truck in park, let off the go pedal, and the motor rpm will stay up at 2500 rpms for a few additional seconds and it does not do it all the time. Sometimes longer( 30 seconds). No doubt there is excess fuel dumping in a cylinder or 6.
I have 2 choices.
1.)Deal with Dodge. They won't fix them until they puck which may hurt my engine and who knows how long it will take to get it fixed.
2.) Watch the longevity of the F1- Flux injectors and make my decision. Have my injectors rebuilt by Don
I have 2 choices.
1.)Deal with Dodge. They won't fix them until they puck which may hurt my engine and who knows how long it will take to get it fixed.
2.) Watch the longevity of the F1- Flux injectors and make my decision. Have my injectors rebuilt by Don
09-23-2006, 02:47 PM
#43
Registered User
Agree with the question, what can be done to eliminate the cavitation.
Also per the above post, I also have for almost as long as I have owned the truck noticed that it has a hard time "Slowing down" after accelerating. I am guessing that ithat is a sign of leaking injectors? If so maybe we ought to ask for a sticky about this being a sign of troubles about to begin? I know if I brought this up with DC thay would ignore it as they do most other complaints, "If it dosen't show in the computer there is no problem!"
just my opinion, again...Don
Also per the above post, I also have for almost as long as I have owned the truck noticed that it has a hard time "Slowing down" after accelerating. I am guessing that ithat is a sign of leaking injectors? If so maybe we ought to ask for a sticky about this being a sign of troubles about to begin? I know if I brought this up with DC thay would ignore it as they do most other complaints, "If it dosen't show in the computer there is no problem!"
just my opinion, again...Don
09-23-2006, 03:49 PM
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09-23-2006, 04:16 PM
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It seems like a there is a lot more potential for a deisel engine to go haywire, and it seems that they do. I'm a new diesel owner and sometimes I think it was a bad a idea to even come to these forums. These $40,000++ trucks sound more like a modded snowmobile that if you're not meticulous in maintaining them, watching fuel quality, etc, that there about to break down. For the amount you pay for them I don't think there should really be any major issues.
Maybe I am just more aware because I've been researching diesel engines, but gas engines don't seem to have NEAR the problems, or the potential for, as the diesels do.
Oil changes and add gas is all you seem to have to do with a "regular, gas powered car"
PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, which I hope I am. Do Gas trucks have near the problem?
I owned a 95 GMC 1/2 for 11 years and didn't have a concern in the world, until I had to rebuild it this past spring, which really wasn't all that big of a deal.
Sorry for hijacking your thread.
Maybe I am just more aware because I've been researching diesel engines, but gas engines don't seem to have NEAR the problems, or the potential for, as the diesels do.
Oil changes and add gas is all you seem to have to do with a "regular, gas powered car"
PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, which I hope I am. Do Gas trucks have near the problem?
I owned a 95 GMC 1/2 for 11 years and didn't have a concern in the world, until I had to rebuild it this past spring, which really wasn't all that big of a deal.
Sorry for hijacking your thread.