ddestruel

so awhile back i had an injector hang up and with the number of miles i decided to replace with new bosch injectors from rip up at source automotive. I opted for the brand new not reman bosch +40hp replacement injectors.

overall i should have done this years ago low end and top end power is so much better, turbo spool and overall engine performance is much smoother and on demand.


Below I’ve posted 18k miles worth of hand calc numbers several different tunes info on my truck regarding whats going on. But i also have a few questions, looking for comparisons etc. My only issue or biggest hangup is above 80 degrees outside air temp I’ve got some weird things going on. Beyond that tunes and mileage numbers may help someone else.




previously i ran a stock set of injectors, with the 4.11B tune on level 5 for best mileage and towing and catcher level 7 but on catcher LVL 7 EGT’s at WOT would creep up past he safe zone on long heavy pulls if towing. when i say towing is 12k lbs -16k lbs up long grades from sea level on I80 to donner summit or from ukiah to willits on the 101 or white bird pass in idaho. grades that drag on and have decent length to them.

on all i can/could maintain 60-65 mph. WG on the turbo opens at 26 and is fully open at 30 and my pressure WOT stops at 34 psi

mileage on the catcher level 5 program was off the charts i easily averaged mixed driving hand calc’d 17-18 mpg consistently with road trips pushing 20-21 at 1800 rpm and 60 +/- mph mostly flat I5 driving. 14-15 mpg with a 6k-8k low trailer load. 11.5-12.5 with the 16k gooseneck. smoke was a dull haze to light puff off the line or when rolling into throttle but negligible at best and took more than 1/2 throttle to produce a black cloud. at WOT at top rpms it would produce a heavy long cloud but that was rare and inconsistent



After the injectors i noticed more smoke off the line and the ability to roll coal per say became more prevalent (not something i liked) even stepping down to stock torque management didn’t alleviate. I dabbled with catcher level 5 for awhile but mileage was down some and smoke and fuel smell heavier than ever before. so i stepped down to catcher level 3 which yielded similar results to the stock injectors for smoke and EGTs and power of the old catcher level 7 tune on stock injectors. but smoke in warm weather above 80 degrees with anything more than 1/4 throttle was enough to take notice.




So i upgraded to the POD REVO programing.
running catcher 3 and stock torque management I’m happy with the haze or lack there of and power is good close to old catcher 5 of 4.11 and stock injectors, possibly a touch stronger. good fit for my needs. mileage was still off some and there still is a tendency at more than 1/4 throttle for it to roll coal heavy coal and the idle fuel smell is still prevalent. something id expect with a bigger stick not these

mileage was 16 mixed driving, with 12-13 pulling any kind of less than 10k load and 10.5 with my 16k gooseneck. power is excellent, EGT’s just fine and they are clean on the top end its just the low boost early throttle situations that bothered me with large black clouds




so i adjusted the timing to level 4. very advanced. what has happened now is the idle fuel smell is gone, the puffs of rolling of coal cleaned up and the mileage in the truck is back. I still get a decent puff but it takes more than 1/2-2/3 throttle and cleans up very fast. still running catcher # 3 but there seems the potential to run catcher #5 and dial it back just a touch with the POD option. EGT’s are great, mixed driving over last 4k miles has averaged 17-18 mpg, towing with light loads under 10k I’m back to 14-15 and with the GN my most recent trip to willits i pulled a solid 12.5. on a few trips over lake county to yuba city i pulled 20 mpg. mid level rpms 1600-2500 the turbo is faster to spool and from 2100-2700 the engine runs with less haze at WOT or towing hard on grades than the old stockers did. at 1800 its response time is significantly improved when you roll into it with a load.







While I’m impressed and happy I’ve found a decent clean running point and what seems to be the engines happy point with the higher timing i.e. level 4 on a motor with 230k+ miles and no studs concerns me a touch.

below 80 degrees i have NO real smoke issues. and with stock tuning and just the injectors i still get an idle fuel smell but its lighter and i get a haze easily at above 80 degrees.



----- I’m wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the black cloud symptoms I’m getting with higher ambient temps, the black cloud fueling even with such mild tunes is it possible an intake air temp switch? MAP sensor? FCA?

----- And with this 305/555 engine and the most recent REVO tunes towing is the main concern with the extra timing anyone running a similar combo and the timing set to 4 without issues.

----- After setting up the truck with catcher #3 and then bumping the timing setting to level 4 (very advanced) i don’t hear any abnormal pinging like i have heard on 04.5-07 trucks when running this much advance. So I’m curious if the different piston bowls and injectors actually necessitated more timing vs the old stock setup or am i just deaf and missing the slow sound of pistons melting





i’ll take suggestions and feedback on these minor details and questions if you can offer me any. otherwise there you go mileage numbers power and smoke feedback regarding my setup and a very happy upgrade for the rig only 10 years past due

thoughts and there you go if you have an 03/04 555 these injectors are a great stock replacement. just takes a little tweaking if your truck is temperamental



Cheers

MikeyB

I believe Timing 4 is mild if you're using one of the more current Revo programs. Timing 2 is the most advance (21 degrees max). Timing 4 is one step higher than the stock timing.

ddestruel

you are correct i think lol


Smarty S06 Ver. 4.11U, Data: R23UP Apr. 10, 2012
Smarty S06 User Guide PDF

"Injection Timing
The Timing selection can be programmed 1 (stock), 2 (advanced), 3 (moderate) or 4 (wild). To use the default timing setting for the current CaTCHER level, press 0.”



Im suspecting i need to upgrade to
Smarty S06 PoD Ver. 4.11E, Data: U:RS01D

because the user guide PDF in that one says
Injection timing
The Timing selection can be programmed 1 (stock), 2 (greatest), 3 (advanced) less than #2 or 4 (moderate) less than #3. To use the default timing setting for the current CaTCHER level, press 0.


Then the question remains on the POD upgrade 4.11U I’m betting you are correct and marco didn’t modify that pdf to reflect the situation of the POD upgrade tune because the mannerisms are definitely more of a moderate than a “wild”

maybe tonight i’ll download 4.11E i never thought to open up the SO6POD section to check for the latest down load. but your explanation makes more sense still not sure about the reasons that the catcher tune didn’t run as well as the setup on this timing level but difference was noticeable

soulezoo

What you are getting is normal. Absolutely normal. The black cloud off the start is because bigger injectors will dump more fuel at the start. The only way around that is through the programming with something like UDC. (or EFI live that we can't have)

Bigger injectors will result in lower mpg. Just the way it is.

Hotter weather results in more smoke (hot air expands with fewer air molecules- read lower oxygen-in the same cubic foot or CFM of air).

All this is normal.

Suggestions: See if you can get the wastegate to open at 30 instead of 26. This will help a little with overall egts, but bottom line is you are maxing the turbo at WOT and you've run out of air.

For reference, I've run 150 hp stix, Catcher 5 on mostly default settings, with 14k fiver from Auburn over Donner Summit averaging 60 mph (for those not familiar, that stretch of nearly 60 miles is 5 and 6% grades the whole way) with temps maxing at 1250-1300 but nominally at 1100-1150 for the distance. MPG is 8-8.5 for that stretch (actually I measure the mpg from Sacramento to Reno). I will usually have heavy haze the whole way as well.

But, I have significantly larger turbos as well.

Don't worry about trying to tune back with POD. Chose the catcher level you like and use it at 99.

On the timing rattle... over the years Marco has played with the timing curves alot. What you hear (or don't) is less to do with bowl design than the overall program model. There has been a lot of refinement over time.

ddestruel

Definitely. Appreciate.

I do find it interesting mine are bosch’s recommendation for stock replacement in 2003-2004 305/555 trucks they just happen to be plus 40hp injectors 5 hole vs 7 or something of that nature. Wife’s are 100hp sticks with no tune running. And the black cloud effect comparison is noticeable. on stock tune with hers with no black cloud noticeable, Ie passed snap throttle emissions test vs mine on stock tune still clouds and won't pass right now (if it stays an issue ill garage in non test region). My 12 valve produces less with a number 10 and mildly loose star wheel. Lol. Hence why I was wondering about a possible sensor. But with mileage numbers where they are and a little more playing with timing and trying various tunes I'll probably find what I'm looking for the jump from 16mpg back up 2-3mpg definitely was the biggie that I thought I should post about. I think your response though is spot on for guys looking at injectors solid numbers and gets with loads along with haze gives others an idea what to expect. i think overall one vs the other these will probably clean up they may have some loose machining or tolerances. but the mileage and EGT’s are all lower so its a little tough to identify why the profound difference. but its there. i suspect it the truck over the injectors because overall mid and WOT these injectors are cleaner than stock but off the line they just have something going on

soulezoo

You touched on another area for readers too. And that is the difference in injector tips.

For reasons I won't try to explain here, not all tips are created equal. And I'm not just talking about HP ratings which vary greatly.

I've had clean tips and dirty tips. And by that I mean some tips will run dirty and hot (without a corresponding increase in power output) and usually are much lower in MPG than tips that run clean and cool. I've run a number of tips now. And I've had 2 sets 90's for instance that were almost identical in power (with identical supporting mods and tunes) but yet one set was much cleaner and only cost me 1 mpg. The other set is much dirtier/hotter and I lost 4 mpg with them. Power difference was 20 more HP with the dirty tips; torque curve and output nearly identical.

My 150's have the same mileage, smoke and heat as the "dirty 90's" I reference, but with 200 more HP.

ddestruel

I’ve seen that on other rigs and with reman injectors i would have expected good quality out of bosch on these units.