GeorgiaCracker

I talked with someone at TST who described the test trucks they are using. He says they hit a 9/9 with a stock 2003 HO that had stock exhaust, intake, modified transmission and a pusher pump.

Period. End of modifications. EGTs were high but at WOT. No blown turbos.

Says barking the turbo is a driver characteristic that can be avoided - rapid let off of acceleration.

There is obviously something out of sync here since people on all the boards are saying you need twins and injectors to "optimize" the PWRMaxCR.

The data do not compute. Any explanations?

Ramasaur

Yah, TST is out to sell their product, its your truck and your pocketbook when the TST blows your turbo along with all the codes. If you want to run that much power, just upgrade your turbo, intake, tranny, & exhaust all at once.... With that much advertised power, what man wouldn't want to set it at 9/9 and romp around with it? What good is 9/9 if you can't safely use it.

I'm sure TST safely used it on 9/9 stock... maybe at idle? Stock cannot handle the 150HP and 500lbs torq without exceeding EGT's and trashing your tranny.
Their dyno is impressive, I actually almost went with them, until I realized the amount of people that are having problems throwing codes and turbos. This box isn't for the average Joe wanting to add some power, this is for the sled puller that has a modified truck that can handle all the power of this box. I just don't understand people buying this box and not being able to fully utilize its power? Just doesn't make sense. Granted I'll probably get slammed for this but its just my .02. Granted... I paid more for my mods than the TST powermax, but I can also use every drop of HP & TQ without blowing anything.... Man I must have got up on the wrong side of the bed....I need my

GeorgiaCracker

TST did modify their transmission. Triple TC, valve body, input shaft. They did add a pusher pump.

I dont think the guy I was talking to was lying just to sell a box. He knows I already have one on order. I was just trying to settle in on the modifications I will need to make. It is hard to sort through the plethora of opinion, conjecture, competitive bias and academic analysis that surrounds this box.

I am not sure adding twins and injectors is going to bring down EGTs. I am not sure everyone is blowing turbo's. I am not sure about anything.

If necessary, I will put on an intake, exhaust, transmission mods, a turbo upgrade and run it at 4/4 until I can affort twins and injectors. But, I am hopeful that there is some less expensive answer. According to some, $15,000 is needed to get the truck to run reliably at 9/9. I am fishing around for a wider range of experiences to inform my decisions.

Push Rod

Georgia,

I so disagree with the way that TST is marketing the PowerMaxCR. Their EGT test results came on a dyno, and no matter how TST feels about load dynos, we just don't see the same EGTs on a load dyno as you will in real world conditions. You absolutely need fuel, exhaust, air box, and turbo to make full use of the box on 9x9. You can run part throttle loads at 9x9 with everything left stock, but then you're also not making full use of the 9x9 power either.

As for the barking comment, I fully agree with TST. Its purely a driver issue, although the aggressive nature of the TST box on the higher power levels does make it easier to bark the charger.

We've now been running a month, code free. Anyone who is throwing codes should get ahold of TST, and send their box back in for a reflash.

Now for my own little rant:

The PowerMaxCR box is a monster. Make no bones about it. 9x9 delivers a full 150 HP peak to peak gain, and a 190 HP max gain. No reasonable person should actually expect to able to run a box with that much fuel, without having to make the appropriate modifications to their truck. If you're not willing to make those modifications, then turn the box down.

I see references to 'dyno-day box' versus 'Towing box' versus 'daily driver box'. TST has attempted, and succeeded, at building a box that is EVERYTHING. You want dyno performance? Throw some money at the truck and turn the box up to 9x9. You want to tow massive loads? Crank up the torque enhancement, drop the peak power down and you've got a box thats second to NONE for towing. Want to blow away the Vette at the next light? Crank up the power, drop the torque enhancement down, and blow his doors off.

I see people burning their trucks down, and hacking on TST for giving them the fuel to do it. Lets turn this around a bit. TST has given us a box that those of us who want to build serious power need. We need the fuel. We do plan on installing monstrous turbochargers, o-ringing the heads, and putting an exhaust system on the truck that you can stuff a horse into. Already, due to the bad press that people have been giving the TST, a well-known performance company has dropped their plans for a TST-level box. They feel its too dangerous to market.

Are you going to launch your turbo into next week? Not if you're smart about it. When the temps get up to 1500F, get off the throttle. We've had a couple TST boxes around here for more than 6 months now. We have yet to torch a turbocharger. But then we back off on the fuel by 1700F. We've blown clutches, we've melted the 3rd gears together on 48REs. But it was OUR OWN fault. We ran hard, and we broke. Its not the boxes fault. We simply need to figure out how to use the power. As a performance company, its our job.

To TST's credit, they haven't brought out 2 or 3 different boxes and charged a premium for the higher powered box. The box costs the same amount to build, no matter what power level you're at. So why be hypocritical and charge a different dollar amount?

If you are someone who absolutely MUST turn the box up all the way, and have no intention of upgrading the rest of the truck to keep pace, then stay away from the TST box. You'll break something. But if you can keep the power level and torque enhancement turned down, its a good box.

Ramasaur, not picking on you, but lets use your Banks box as an example. You've got a box that will deliver 120 MAX GAIN HP, and 90 peak-to-peak horsepower. The TST box delivers this kind of power on Level 4 or level 5, depending on the truck. The bottom side power of the Banks box is matched by the TST box on TE level 2 or 3. And the TST box can be run safely with stock components at these power level settings. So, you can buy the Banks box, get the same performance, at no greater safety level, for more money. I don't understand where the advantage is?



Rod

GeorgiaCracker

I agree Push Rod. With everything you said. Nice post.

I would like to start collecting some useful experiential data on successes/failures with turbos, pusher pumps, etc.

Perhaps, it is not out there yet.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

doug60

I have been driveing my 12 valve, like it has an egg under my right foot for years. If I punch it & bang gears it will tear my imput shaft out (again ) !!!!. 2004.5 on the way I am used to having to much power at least I will be able to control it with the box. Hats off to TST

Scotty

Some of you probably have seen me post this line a time or two...

YOU WANNA PLAY BE PREPARED TO PAY

Having said that, I also feel that the learning curve of the CR trucks is still young and those that think its the same as the previous VP-44 trucks are mistaken...the same/similar kind of power mods will not produce the same kind of results.

People building products that worked well on the VP-44 or even the P-7100 need to rethink their hopes that its going to be the same with the CR trucks.

This R&D and testing comes with a cost. I will stick with my belief that the REAL WORLD is where you learn...sometimes the hard way.



I wonder what the Nitrous kit will do now?

Ramasaur

Push Rod,
Do you have any dyno charts on the 03 HO to back the 90HP peak to peak w/ 120 max hp gain? I haven't gotten a chance to dyno mine yet, so I can't comment on how much HP I gained. I also agree with you regarding the TST box, and it is all about how far you want to go. Banks had exactly what I wanted, no more no less, and with all my mods, I'm a Camper. I'll give it to TST for going all out and doing pulse width and duration as well as timing and pressure. I am disappointed that Banks left that one out One thing I don't understand though? If TST is putting out more power than Banks w/ speed loader on TST level 4 or 5, and Banks on level six you can start to feel the auto tranny starting to slip.... how can you safely run TST at that level??? Luckily I have the 6 speed.....
I wish someone would dyno test a Banks box w/ speed loader on a stock truck, no mods at all and see what it'll do.... someone not affiliated with selling another manufacturers box or banks boxes for that matter.... I will post my dyno numbers, when I get my on there, but I also have exhaust intake, wastegate so it won't give a good look at what just the box alone will do?????

katoiler

Well,I dynoed my SO,and stock it went 190hp.With the box on 7x5 did 355hp on 9x7 it did 356 hp and starved for fuel.Not bad for a SO!If my math is right that is 165hp gain,And was not able to use all the power for lack of fuel.And that was through a stock 48re. with all the slippage.That was with the EGT limiter set at 1600.

Push Rod

Well, quite frankly we haven't had a failure on the turbocharger front yet. We've been running a KSB1B for 4 months now, and feel this is a sweetheart of a charger for the casual driver. You'll only be able to run 5x5 or 6x6, before temps get out of control though. We've been waiting on a full B1 for a bit, but will hopefully see it here in the next couple weeks. Then we'll have an idea as to whether or not we can run a single charger, and keep temps under control on the street.

We haven't bothered running any type of Holset charger. As I mentioned, with the box turned up on its more aggressive levels, it is fairly easy to bark the charger. Holsets hate being barked, especially 40s, which is definitely the minimum charger that we'd need to run with the box.

As for fuel pumps, we've simply replaced the lift pump with an adapter and are currently running a Carter 15 PSI pump on the fuel rail. 14 PSI at idle, 10 at WOT. We've also replaced the line between canister and CP3 with -8. This is not going to be our final system, as we want to see idle and WOT pressures a little higher, probably around 20 PSI or so.

Rod

Push Rod

1) We don't have published dyno charts, however a couple of my dealers and customers have dyno'ed the box. Our results were predictable, within 10 HP of one another.

2) Nope, no pressure. I'm a little disappointed that they wouldn't do pressure as well.

3) A couple points to address here. The PCM will detect slippage, and automatically de-rate power in an attempt to control it. This can be felt by the driver, who really should get out of it by this point. 2nd point: If the Banks kit is causing slippage, then you're not making full use of its fuel either. It will de-rate itself down to a power level that the tranny can handle. Either way, HP is HP. Each box will have the exact same usuable HP on a stock automatic.

And just to make sure we're straight, Ramasaur, I really wasn't picking on you. Your Banks box analogy just happened to be convenient.

Rod

hoot

So why the heat issues now? What is different that restricts this engine to 150 addtl hp?

They're running 215 boxes stacked on Juice on the Dmax and nothing is blowing.

How do you go from a 12v to a 24v engine and have more heat issues?

I think this engine is beginning to show it's limits in the real world of emissions contraints.

Scotty

I don't think its limitations due to emissions. I feel that it is caused by extending the injection pulse at the end not starting it earlier then stock.

Thats just my guess why the heat is there until I dissect an intercooler and have the head off.

Also, the cam is different in the CR's too.

Push Rod

As Scotty mentioned, the biggest difference between this engine and the other Cummins engines in the family is the timing of the main injection event. Its far too late for efficient combustion, raising the EGTs up. Many of these EGTs are a direct result of the fuel charge still burning as its exitting the cylinder, and burning as it makes it way to the turbo.

The DMax is a different animal than our Cummins engines. Keep in mind that with fueling boxes, you're still only making about 450 HP with a DMax, about the same as a common rail Cummins, but torque is much lower. This means we're actually injecting less fuel into the cylinders of a DMax. Less fuel = less heat.

I don't think we're anywhere near our limits yet. We've got some work to do, yes, but we're not even close to what the Common Rail Cummins will put to the ground.

Rod

Don-T

Push Rod,

For the most part I agree with what you are saying about the TST / Banks comparison. I happen to have the Six Shooter and Speed Loader in my truck along with the recommended airflow changes, as they were when I bought the box. I has a good amount of power but I am sure the TST can provide a lot more.

I wonder what the EGT is with the TST box set on 4/4 or 5/5 with a free flowing intake and exhaust and a stock turbo? I bought the Banks parts because they were designed for towing which is my intended use. I have not towed anything heavy yet but I have run the truck up to 100 mph at WOT and the EGT went to about 1025 and held. I have the 48RE but I elected to not use the slip detection for it. The reason I say that is because I don't believe mine is de-fueling at all. I wonder if the low EGT is because Banks raised the fuel pressure and adcanced the timing but left the pulse width alone. That way all the fuel is injected as early as possible so that it can be fully burned before the exhaust valve is opened which in turn can keep the EGT under control.

Does anyone have any info on the TST box EGT with a stock turbo and after market intake and exhaust? I do believe the TST power at 4/4 or 5/5 would equal the Banks stuff on level 6 but would the EGT be as low?