Long crank
11-19-2007, 01:09 PM
#31
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Topper this sounds like great news, maybe weve found it, finally! On you discripion of the relieve valve you said weld the HOLES, i wanted to catch you before a mistake. maybe [hopefully] im wrong but i question if you are thinking of welding the wrong part. You might have read a while back where i welded one. remove the banjo bolt, carefully move the hard line out of the way and with a deep socket[cant remember the size but big, maybe 15/16 or so ] remove the valve. On the bottom there is just one HOLE pretty small, this is the one you would weld. I used a wire feed mig, and take it to a grinder and clean it WELL then buff it clean- reinstall. Sorry just wanted to make sure we were all still on the same page. Im sure glad to hear about this COV Ill be checking in to this. My buddies truck with this issue is still in the shop, ill give them a call.
11-19-2007, 03:11 PM
#32
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Right on Topper, my truck doing the same thing, it was starting hard at the beginning of summer, haven't had any problems since until yesterday. Same issues, but I pulled my relief and threaded the inside of it and installed a plug, then ground it off flush with the bottom of the outside threads. Going to pull COV tonight and clean it, will post my results also, but same situation fire when cold, shut off, won't start when warm. Hope that's it, thanks for the suggestions, it's embarrising popping the hood to give it a shot of ether in those crowded parking lots. Crossing my fingers.
11-19-2007, 06:35 PM
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Hey guys,
Man I'm happy that you guys are getting such good results. Myself, I had a little set back. I had the same problem today that I've been having. It started ok this morning but this afternoon I drove the truck a few blocks went into the Docs office when I came out the truck wouldn't start. I had to break out the ether. Well when I got back to the plant I pulled the COV and sure enough there was some crap in it. I looked down in the cp3 and there was some crap down in the hole as well. I cleaned things up real good
reinstalled the COV and the truck started good again. Now I wonder where all the junk is coming from... One thing for sure the COV needs to be clean.
See ya guys,
Topper
Man I'm happy that you guys are getting such good results. Myself, I had a little set back. I had the same problem today that I've been having. It started ok this morning but this afternoon I drove the truck a few blocks went into the Docs office when I came out the truck wouldn't start. I had to break out the ether. Well when I got back to the plant I pulled the COV and sure enough there was some crap in it. I looked down in the cp3 and there was some crap down in the hole as well. I cleaned things up real good
reinstalled the COV and the truck started good again. Now I wonder where all the junk is coming from... One thing for sure the COV needs to be clean.
See ya guys,
Topper
11-27-2007, 07:41 PM
#34
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Random thoughts - hard-start/no-start situations
Twice within the last week my '03 (140K miles) failed to start. Both times the engine was somewhat cold and the truck had not been used for a couple of days and both times common rail pressure was low during cranking (800 to 1100 psi). For several weeks prior to these total no-start episodes routine cold starts had been taking a little bit longer than usual but I just suspected it was due to the cool November weather; I wasn't monitoring the cranking rail pressure but now suspect it was taking a longer and longer time to build up.
Waiting until the sun warmed the truck up a bit appears to have allowed me to start the engine the first time. The second episode was solved by following the excellent Cascade Overflow Valve instructions Topper provided in his 17Nov07 post. Neither the COV itself nor mating cavity in the CP3 appeared to be dirty but I thoroughly cleaned the COV anyway and reinstalled. Cranked the engine 4-5 seconds, watched the Quadzilla Commander rail pressure readout steadily build to 1500 psi and the engine started immediately. Time will tell if this is a permanent fix or not, but so far so good.
3rd generation hard-start/no-start problems are certainly frequent as any search of the various CTD forums will show. The fixes and attempted fixes run the gamut. Just to name a few, it appears that short & long term solutions have resulted from:
- replacing injectors;
- replacing, or merely opening the housing for, fuel filters;
- replacing, blocking off, or merely cleaning various pressure regulating/relief devices;
- replacing lift pumps;
- replacing CP3 pumps;
- replacing starting batteries;
- using starting fluid;
- bump starting when equipped with a manual transmission;
Low common rail pressure during engine cranking is almost certainly at the root of many of these problems. Any wear, tear, contamination, or other changes in the 5.9L low or high-pressure fuel system that would reduce common rail pressure at engine cranking speeds could bring on a hard-start/no-start condition. Because there are so many ways that common rail pressure could be affected at cranking speeds it should not surprise us that many different approaches might provide short or longer term solutions. Apart from the cases where a known bad injector or failed pressure part singlehandedly caused a hard or no-start problem, I suspect that these random and challenging hard-start/no-start conditions most often result when two or more changes acting together reduce rail pressure to the point that start mode rail pressure parameters are no longer being satisfied. For instance, a less than optimum set of batteries could reduce cranking speed and thus CP3 pressure at cranking speed. If one or more injectors or other pressure relief devices were also incorrectly bypassing some high pressure fuel as a result of wear or contamination, the combination of the lower cranking speed and abnormal fuel bypassing could generate a low common rail pressure hard-start/no-start condition. Replacing the batteries or injectors alone might appear to resolve the problem but would leave the engine susceptible to another hard-start/no-start event in the future when some other portion of the fuel or starting system fell below operating limits. Bump starting and the potentially dangerous practice of using starting fluid probably work because they momentarily spin the engine faster than basic cranking speed, increase the CP3 high pressure output as a result, and thus increase starting phase common rail pressure enough to offset low cranking rpm and/or abnormal high pressure fuel bypassing. Opening and closing the fuel system at the fuel filter or other other connections (which no doubt introduces quite a bit of air) may create enough momentary turbulance in the fuel system to dislodge debris and cause check valves and such to again seal.
We can all generate additional scenarios where one or two significant problems or two or more less significant problems acting together could result in low common rail pressure during the starting phase. Many of these hard-start/no-start combination scenarios would never affect engine performance in any noticeable manner once the engine was running but they would affect the starting mode when common rail pressures are already so low that it takes very little to drop below needed starting pressure parameters. I can hardly wait for the next combination of wear, tear, and contamination items to align so I can experience another hard or no-start event - will just have to closely track starting mode common rail pressure from now on to see if I can detect in advance when rail pressure build-up becomes sluggish enough to enter the "danger zone".
ULSD might be a contributor to this problem if that fuel doesn't sufficiently lubricate our close tolerance pump and injector parts causing accelerated wear and/or increases fuel contamination problems as it dissolves old fuel system deposits, etc. I've been using various lubricity additives since ULSD was introduced but hard to say if they helped, guess they couldn't have hurt. We've all heard the speculation but so far I've not seen any solid evidence that ULSD is bad. But the timing coincidence between introduction of this fuel and many fuel related problems being experienced is troubling and reason enough to examine such possibilities further and more closely.
Waiting until the sun warmed the truck up a bit appears to have allowed me to start the engine the first time. The second episode was solved by following the excellent Cascade Overflow Valve instructions Topper provided in his 17Nov07 post. Neither the COV itself nor mating cavity in the CP3 appeared to be dirty but I thoroughly cleaned the COV anyway and reinstalled. Cranked the engine 4-5 seconds, watched the Quadzilla Commander rail pressure readout steadily build to 1500 psi and the engine started immediately. Time will tell if this is a permanent fix or not, but so far so good.
3rd generation hard-start/no-start problems are certainly frequent as any search of the various CTD forums will show. The fixes and attempted fixes run the gamut. Just to name a few, it appears that short & long term solutions have resulted from:
- replacing injectors;
- replacing, or merely opening the housing for, fuel filters;
- replacing, blocking off, or merely cleaning various pressure regulating/relief devices;
- replacing lift pumps;
- replacing CP3 pumps;
- replacing starting batteries;
- using starting fluid;
- bump starting when equipped with a manual transmission;
Low common rail pressure during engine cranking is almost certainly at the root of many of these problems. Any wear, tear, contamination, or other changes in the 5.9L low or high-pressure fuel system that would reduce common rail pressure at engine cranking speeds could bring on a hard-start/no-start condition. Because there are so many ways that common rail pressure could be affected at cranking speeds it should not surprise us that many different approaches might provide short or longer term solutions. Apart from the cases where a known bad injector or failed pressure part singlehandedly caused a hard or no-start problem, I suspect that these random and challenging hard-start/no-start conditions most often result when two or more changes acting together reduce rail pressure to the point that start mode rail pressure parameters are no longer being satisfied. For instance, a less than optimum set of batteries could reduce cranking speed and thus CP3 pressure at cranking speed. If one or more injectors or other pressure relief devices were also incorrectly bypassing some high pressure fuel as a result of wear or contamination, the combination of the lower cranking speed and abnormal fuel bypassing could generate a low common rail pressure hard-start/no-start condition. Replacing the batteries or injectors alone might appear to resolve the problem but would leave the engine susceptible to another hard-start/no-start event in the future when some other portion of the fuel or starting system fell below operating limits. Bump starting and the potentially dangerous practice of using starting fluid probably work because they momentarily spin the engine faster than basic cranking speed, increase the CP3 high pressure output as a result, and thus increase starting phase common rail pressure enough to offset low cranking rpm and/or abnormal high pressure fuel bypassing. Opening and closing the fuel system at the fuel filter or other other connections (which no doubt introduces quite a bit of air) may create enough momentary turbulance in the fuel system to dislodge debris and cause check valves and such to again seal.
We can all generate additional scenarios where one or two significant problems or two or more less significant problems acting together could result in low common rail pressure during the starting phase. Many of these hard-start/no-start combination scenarios would never affect engine performance in any noticeable manner once the engine was running but they would affect the starting mode when common rail pressures are already so low that it takes very little to drop below needed starting pressure parameters. I can hardly wait for the next combination of wear, tear, and contamination items to align so I can experience another hard or no-start event - will just have to closely track starting mode common rail pressure from now on to see if I can detect in advance when rail pressure build-up becomes sluggish enough to enter the "danger zone".
ULSD might be a contributor to this problem if that fuel doesn't sufficiently lubricate our close tolerance pump and injector parts causing accelerated wear and/or increases fuel contamination problems as it dissolves old fuel system deposits, etc. I've been using various lubricity additives since ULSD was introduced but hard to say if they helped, guess they couldn't have hurt. We've all heard the speculation but so far I've not seen any solid evidence that ULSD is bad. But the timing coincidence between introduction of this fuel and many fuel related problems being experienced is troubling and reason enough to examine such possibilities further and more closely.
11-28-2007, 03:32 AM
#35
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Twice within the last week my '03 (140K miles) failed to start. Both times the engine was somewhat cold and the truck had not been used for a couple of days and both times common rail pressure was low during cranking (800 to 1100 psi). For several weeks prior to these total no-start episodes routine cold starts had been taking a little bit longer than usual but I just suspected it was due to the cool November weather; I wasn't monitoring the cranking rail pressure but now suspect it was taking a longer and longer time to build up.
Waiting until the sun warmed the truck up a bit appears to have allowed me to start the engine the first time. The second episode was solved by following the excellent Cascade Overflow Valve instructions Topper provided in his 17Nov07 post. Neither the COV itself nor mating cavity in the CP3 appeared to be dirty but I thoroughly cleaned the COV anyway and reinstalled. Cranked the engine 4-5 seconds, watched the Quadzilla Commander rail pressure readout steadily build to 1500 psi and the engine started immediately. Time will tell if this is a permanent fix or not, but so far so good.
3rd generation hard-start/no-start problems are certainly frequent as any search of the various CTD forums will show. The fixes and attempted fixes run the gamut. Just to name a few, it appears that short & long term solutions have resulted from:
- replacing injectors;
- replacing, or merely opening the housing for, fuel filters;
- replacing, blocking off, or merely cleaning various pressure regulating/relief devices;
- replacing lift pumps;
- replacing CP3 pumps;
- replacing starting batteries;
- using starting fluid;
- bump starting when equipped with a manual transmission;
Low common rail pressure during engine cranking is almost certainly at the root of many of these problems. Any wear, tear, contamination, or other changes in the 5.9L low or high-pressure fuel system that would reduce common rail pressure at engine cranking speeds could bring on a hard-start/no-start condition. Because there are so many ways that common rail pressure could be affected at cranking speeds it should not surprise us that many different approaches might provide short or longer term solutions. Apart from the cases where a known bad injector or failed pressure part singlehandedly caused a hard or no-start problem, I suspect that these random and challenging hard-start/no-start conditions most often result when two or more changes acting together reduce rail pressure to the point that start mode rail pressure parameters are no longer being satisfied. For instance, a less than optimum set of batteries could reduce cranking speed and thus CP3 pressure at cranking speed. If one or more injectors or other pressure relief devices were also incorrectly bypassing some high pressure fuel as a result of wear or contamination, the combination of the lower cranking speed and abnormal fuel bypassing could generate a low common rail pressure hard-start/no-start condition. Replacing the batteries or injectors alone might appear to resolve the problem but would leave the engine susceptible to another hard-start/no-start event in the future when some other portion of the fuel or starting system fell below operating limits. Bump starting and the potentially dangerous practice of using starting fluid probably work because they momentarily spin the engine faster than basic cranking speed, increase the CP3 high pressure output as a result, and thus increase starting phase common rail pressure enough to offset low cranking rpm and/or abnormal high pressure fuel bypassing. Opening and closing the fuel system at the fuel filter or other other connections (which no doubt introduces quite a bit of air) may create enough momentary turbulance in the fuel system to dislodge debris and cause check valves and such to again seal.
We can all generate additional scenarios where one or two significant problems or two or more less significant problems acting together could result in low common rail pressure during the starting phase. Many of these hard-start/no-start combination scenarios would never affect engine performance in any noticeable manner once the engine was running but they would affect the starting mode when common rail pressures are already so low that it takes very little to drop below needed starting pressure parameters. I can hardly wait for the next combination of wear, tear, and contamination items to align so I can experience another hard or no-start event - will just have to closely track starting mode common rail pressure from now on to see if I can detect in advance when rail pressure build-up becomes sluggish enough to enter the "danger zone".
ULSD might be a contributor to this problem if that fuel doesn't sufficiently lubricate our close tolerance pump and injector parts causing accelerated wear and/or increases fuel contamination problems as it dissolves old fuel system deposits, etc. I've been using various lubricity additives since ULSD was introduced but hard to say if they helped, guess they couldn't have hurt. We've all heard the speculation but so far I've not seen any solid evidence that ULSD is bad. But the timing coincidence between introduction of this fuel and many fuel related problems being experienced is troubling and reason enough to examine such possibilities further and more closely.
Waiting until the sun warmed the truck up a bit appears to have allowed me to start the engine the first time. The second episode was solved by following the excellent Cascade Overflow Valve instructions Topper provided in his 17Nov07 post. Neither the COV itself nor mating cavity in the CP3 appeared to be dirty but I thoroughly cleaned the COV anyway and reinstalled. Cranked the engine 4-5 seconds, watched the Quadzilla Commander rail pressure readout steadily build to 1500 psi and the engine started immediately. Time will tell if this is a permanent fix or not, but so far so good.
3rd generation hard-start/no-start problems are certainly frequent as any search of the various CTD forums will show. The fixes and attempted fixes run the gamut. Just to name a few, it appears that short & long term solutions have resulted from:
- replacing injectors;
- replacing, or merely opening the housing for, fuel filters;
- replacing, blocking off, or merely cleaning various pressure regulating/relief devices;
- replacing lift pumps;
- replacing CP3 pumps;
- replacing starting batteries;
- using starting fluid;
- bump starting when equipped with a manual transmission;
Low common rail pressure during engine cranking is almost certainly at the root of many of these problems. Any wear, tear, contamination, or other changes in the 5.9L low or high-pressure fuel system that would reduce common rail pressure at engine cranking speeds could bring on a hard-start/no-start condition. Because there are so many ways that common rail pressure could be affected at cranking speeds it should not surprise us that many different approaches might provide short or longer term solutions. Apart from the cases where a known bad injector or failed pressure part singlehandedly caused a hard or no-start problem, I suspect that these random and challenging hard-start/no-start conditions most often result when two or more changes acting together reduce rail pressure to the point that start mode rail pressure parameters are no longer being satisfied. For instance, a less than optimum set of batteries could reduce cranking speed and thus CP3 pressure at cranking speed. If one or more injectors or other pressure relief devices were also incorrectly bypassing some high pressure fuel as a result of wear or contamination, the combination of the lower cranking speed and abnormal fuel bypassing could generate a low common rail pressure hard-start/no-start condition. Replacing the batteries or injectors alone might appear to resolve the problem but would leave the engine susceptible to another hard-start/no-start event in the future when some other portion of the fuel or starting system fell below operating limits. Bump starting and the potentially dangerous practice of using starting fluid probably work because they momentarily spin the engine faster than basic cranking speed, increase the CP3 high pressure output as a result, and thus increase starting phase common rail pressure enough to offset low cranking rpm and/or abnormal high pressure fuel bypassing. Opening and closing the fuel system at the fuel filter or other other connections (which no doubt introduces quite a bit of air) may create enough momentary turbulance in the fuel system to dislodge debris and cause check valves and such to again seal.
We can all generate additional scenarios where one or two significant problems or two or more less significant problems acting together could result in low common rail pressure during the starting phase. Many of these hard-start/no-start combination scenarios would never affect engine performance in any noticeable manner once the engine was running but they would affect the starting mode when common rail pressures are already so low that it takes very little to drop below needed starting pressure parameters. I can hardly wait for the next combination of wear, tear, and contamination items to align so I can experience another hard or no-start event - will just have to closely track starting mode common rail pressure from now on to see if I can detect in advance when rail pressure build-up becomes sluggish enough to enter the "danger zone".
ULSD might be a contributor to this problem if that fuel doesn't sufficiently lubricate our close tolerance pump and injector parts causing accelerated wear and/or increases fuel contamination problems as it dissolves old fuel system deposits, etc. I've been using various lubricity additives since ULSD was introduced but hard to say if they helped, guess they couldn't have hurt. We've all heard the speculation but so far I've not seen any solid evidence that ULSD is bad. But the timing coincidence between introduction of this fuel and many fuel related problems being experienced is troubling and reason enough to examine such possibilities further and more closely.
Very well researched and thought out writen examination. Almost could be a sticky. I have called many diesel shops both in the area and nationally and let me tell you "ALL" have noticed a surge in injector/injection pump/fuel supply repairs in the last few months. Normal for this time of year as cold sets in, but most have seen an increase of 50% or greater this year than in those past.
11-28-2007, 07:44 AM
#36
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When I went through this, it ended up 3 injectors were bad. Haven't had a problem since, and its been a few months and over 3,000 miles.
This thread is helpful -> https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...d.php?t=164730
This thread is helpful -> https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...d.php?t=164730
12-09-2007, 10:20 AM
#37
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Hey guys,
I just wanted to update ya on how my problem was fixed. I did have a bad relief valve and that helped a little. Also, cleaning the COV did make a differance but it didn't fix the problem. I sent the injectors to Don M and he found 3 bad injectors. After he fixed the injectors he installed flux 2 tips and now the truck starts just as fast (if not faster) then our 05. The truck also has a bunch more bottom end then it did before. So all in all I'm happy how it runs but I'm really happy that I don't need that can of starting fluid any more. (I will keep it handy though).
Anyway I had a chance to race a buddy of mine with a fast D-max that I run with but, he always beats me by a truck or so. (0-100mph) His truck is a extended cab with an auto. Much lighter then my Daully
Well, now I beat him by 1.5-2 truck lenghts. Now I need to install my new turbo (62-12) and Fass lift pump.
Any guesses on hp after new turbo?
See ya,
Topper
I just wanted to update ya on how my problem was fixed. I did have a bad relief valve and that helped a little. Also, cleaning the COV did make a differance but it didn't fix the problem. I sent the injectors to Don M and he found 3 bad injectors. After he fixed the injectors he installed flux 2 tips and now the truck starts just as fast (if not faster) then our 05. The truck also has a bunch more bottom end then it did before. So all in all I'm happy how it runs but I'm really happy that I don't need that can of starting fluid any more. (I will keep it handy though).
Anyway I had a chance to race a buddy of mine with a fast D-max that I run with but, he always beats me by a truck or so. (0-100mph) His truck is a extended cab with an auto. Much lighter then my Daully
Well, now I beat him by 1.5-2 truck lenghts. Now I need to install my new turbo (62-12) and Fass lift pump.
Any guesses on hp after new turbo?
See ya,
Topper
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