DIY CP3 mod
03-01-2007, 01:00 PM
#61
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the way i see it is if $1100 is too much, then why dont the complainants open their own company and do it for $400.
we all work to support ourselves, some of us have the pleasure of having a hobby that brings in that income. but with any job you need to remain competitive and get to the next step before the competition evens thinks about that next step...to get there takes money.
yes it may seem like a relatively easy mod but then why hasnt everyone thought about doing it two years ago if its so easy? what they know and what you dont is what makes it expensive...and now many are aware of it, and hindsight is always 20/20.
you dont HAVE to have extra power. its not your RIGHT to have more power, especially at a price YOU can afford.
tear me apart on this one but thats the way i feel. if the prices were too expensive, they wouldnt be able to sell the product. if the prices were too cheap they either have a very small profit margin and/or have too many people wanting the mod that it creates a huge lead time and customers would complain it took too long.
think about this the next time you want a raise at your job. that takes money, and who does that money come from?
just my 2 cents
Pat
we all work to support ourselves, some of us have the pleasure of having a hobby that brings in that income. but with any job you need to remain competitive and get to the next step before the competition evens thinks about that next step...to get there takes money.
yes it may seem like a relatively easy mod but then why hasnt everyone thought about doing it two years ago if its so easy? what they know and what you dont is what makes it expensive...and now many are aware of it, and hindsight is always 20/20.
you dont HAVE to have extra power. its not your RIGHT to have more power, especially at a price YOU can afford.
tear me apart on this one but thats the way i feel. if the prices were too expensive, they wouldnt be able to sell the product. if the prices were too cheap they either have a very small profit margin and/or have too many people wanting the mod that it creates a huge lead time and customers would complain it took too long.
think about this the next time you want a raise at your job. that takes money, and who does that money come from?
just my 2 cents
Pat
Well, you know what..... I am not arguing so much with the modded CP3, but COME ON! The CP3 duals kit..... Like I said, Ill tell you what.... Ill replicate it, then you can give your input if it costs me a 1/4. If you say that it took R&D, then fine, but really, if you are doing this for a hobby that brings in money.....
Fact is this..... If I love this "hobby" then I wont charge for my R&D to try and get rich. I have more money than a lot of incomes, so quite frankly it is not that! It is the principal of the cost. It is like me designing a logo, priniting it in a sticker 4" x 6" and charging you 450.00 for it. Took me 4 hours to design it. Gimme a break! NO ONES time is worth that, not even mine!
So, we will see. Supply and demand I suppose. I may just take this whole thing up, design and build a kit, and sell it to the first 10 people at dead cost. Then do my marginal profit margin.
My cousin built a 69 GTO with a set of Ball bearing turbos somewhere in the range of 80mm complete with intercooler, and it was NOT even close to the price of ATS' twins, or BD for that matter. What does this tell me? It tells me that there is a niche market for people to profit and take advantage in.
Look at Bill Gates....... Borderline Monopoly!
Chad
03-01-2007, 01:28 PM
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03-01-2007, 01:40 PM
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This post isn't about CP3s, but moreso about aftermarket transmissions. Why is it that when I search around for a bullet proof tranny for my 06', "X" company wants $8,000 for a full billet set up, but "Y" company wants $5200 WITHOUT a core charge? Is "X" company's billet components just THAT much MORE billet than "Y" company's billet? Did "X" company put THAT much MORE time and effort into developing and testing their product than "Y" company did? "X" company offers a 3 year/150,000 mile warranty on their full billet and "Y" company offers a 2 year/unlimited mile warranty on their full billet. Who would you go with? "Y" company gets my vote anyday of the week.
03-01-2007, 01:48 PM
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The trans thing is a whole 'nother thread in its own. I know for a FACT that there are some baaaaad trans builders out there. Again, it isnt about money. I just dropped a WHACK of loot on a trans! I know that the metal in those parts ARE worth BIG $$.
Actually there is the perfect comparision. There is very little machining and parts in a Dual CP3 kit in comparison to a trans build up, so lets say ATS trans, 6000-6500 for a decent built trans, that is taking all the abuse of HP and TQ. You cant tell me that 4000.00 for a pump kit is justified. This is what makes me shake my head. If there was ANY area for R&D, the TRANS is the place to do it all!
Compare the two, and tell me if something stinks, or gives you a twitch.
Trans are a hard decision requiring a lot of research before purchase.
Chad
Actually there is the perfect comparision. There is very little machining and parts in a Dual CP3 kit in comparison to a trans build up, so lets say ATS trans, 6000-6500 for a decent built trans, that is taking all the abuse of HP and TQ. You cant tell me that 4000.00 for a pump kit is justified. This is what makes me shake my head. If there was ANY area for R&D, the TRANS is the place to do it all!
Compare the two, and tell me if something stinks, or gives you a twitch.
Trans are a hard decision requiring a lot of research before purchase.
Chad
03-01-2007, 01:53 PM
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Well, you know what..... I am not arguing so much with the modded CP3, but COME ON! The CP3 duals kit..... Like I said, Ill tell you what.... Ill replicate it, then you can give your input if it costs me a 1/4. If you say that it took R&D, then fine, but really, if you are doing this for a hobby that brings in money.....
Fact is this..... If I love this "hobby" then I wont charge for my R&D to try and get rich. I have more money than a lot of incomes, so quite frankly it is not that! It is the principal of the cost. It is like me designing a logo, priniting it in a sticker 4" x 6" and charging you 450.00 for it. Took me 4 hours to design it. Gimme a break! NO ONES time is worth that, not even mine!
So, we will see. Supply and demand I suppose. I may just take this whole thing up, design and build a kit, and sell it to the first 10 people at dead cost. Then do my marginal profit margin.
My cousin built a 69 GTO with a set of Ball bearing turbos somewhere in the range of 80mm complete with intercooler, and it was NOT even close to the price of ATS' twins, or BD for that matter. What does this tell me? It tells me that there is a niche market for people to profit and take advantage in.
Look at Bill Gates....... Borderline Monopoly!
Chad
Fact is this..... If I love this "hobby" then I wont charge for my R&D to try and get rich. I have more money than a lot of incomes, so quite frankly it is not that! It is the principal of the cost. It is like me designing a logo, priniting it in a sticker 4" x 6" and charging you 450.00 for it. Took me 4 hours to design it. Gimme a break! NO ONES time is worth that, not even mine!
So, we will see. Supply and demand I suppose. I may just take this whole thing up, design and build a kit, and sell it to the first 10 people at dead cost. Then do my marginal profit margin.
My cousin built a 69 GTO with a set of Ball bearing turbos somewhere in the range of 80mm complete with intercooler, and it was NOT even close to the price of ATS' twins, or BD for that matter. What does this tell me? It tells me that there is a niche market for people to profit and take advantage in.
Look at Bill Gates....... Borderline Monopoly!
Chad
The "Black Magic" in the pumps cant be worth the money we are payin....
WHAT are the hours it takes to mod a CP3?
Is there 22H of labour @ $50/H in each pump? Think Not.... I understand EVERYONE needs to make money .. BUT ?
03-01-2007, 02:10 PM
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the pricing does not suprise me at all and i dont even begrudge them for charging that much. it is much like the whole fuel plate issue of whether or not to grind your own with a dremel or pay $200 for a vendors plate ..i chose to grind my own. just like i will choose to mod my own fca. its not about cost b/c i have a little bit of cheese i just dont like dumping huge amounts of $$ into my truck. for example i bought my tst and edge for $500, afe stage 2 for $25 clutch for $500. i had a flow thru muffler laying around $0.
I have $1000 tied up in mods right now. all i need now is a turbo, sticks, and walbro.. i will mod my pump myself. when i am done i should be around $3300 for a 550+hp truck
my buddy spent $5000 tranny,$1000tst,$500 edge,$600 fass (sucked) then went to walbro $350, $400, exhaust, $2200 silver bullet, $1100 stage one. he spent $11K to make a little over 550hp.
buy smart..and learn from others on this board it will save you big time. not only can it save you $7k your results could be much better.
i can predict the future most people on this board in the next year will have ground there own fca just like most ground there own plate with the p-pump and the stage one pumps will still be $1100 from vendors. also in 4 months you will be able to buy a modded fca for about $150 this is just how a free enterprise system works. ie. electronics gizmos are high at first and your cool to everyone b/c you are the 1st to own and then they get cheap and everyone has one.
i still have a few questions hanging out there i hope will get answered about this modification. i will thank you in advance chris
I have $1000 tied up in mods right now. all i need now is a turbo, sticks, and walbro.. i will mod my pump myself. when i am done i should be around $3300 for a 550+hp truck
my buddy spent $5000 tranny,$1000tst,$500 edge,$600 fass (sucked) then went to walbro $350, $400, exhaust, $2200 silver bullet, $1100 stage one. he spent $11K to make a little over 550hp.
buy smart..and learn from others on this board it will save you big time. not only can it save you $7k your results could be much better.
i can predict the future most people on this board in the next year will have ground there own fca just like most ground there own plate with the p-pump and the stage one pumps will still be $1100 from vendors. also in 4 months you will be able to buy a modded fca for about $150 this is just how a free enterprise system works. ie. electronics gizmos are high at first and your cool to everyone b/c you are the 1st to own and then they get cheap and everyone has one.
i still have a few questions hanging out there i hope will get answered about this modification. i will thank you in advance chris
03-01-2007, 02:24 PM
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who, in 2003, tore apart their CP3 and started to enlarge orifices to see its cause and effect? cant imagine many. but some companies put forth that money.
some want couple hundred dollars for a fuel plate in a 12 valve...which can be done by any mechanically inclined person. its easy, but it wasnt 'easy' 10 years ago because not many people knew what a fuel plate did. the hindsight now is 'you just grind here'.
those companies also made/making headway with the 24 valves...impressive at first but sometimes hindsight makes one frustrated because it was so simple.
usually with time, prices come down! in the rapidly growing sport of diesel performance, it might be awhile until other competition steps up that provides the same product for half the price with reliability.
if enough people pay for it, its just might be worth it for some companies to charge that much.
CatCracker2- my post took a little time, but i see you mentioned the fuel plate as well
some want couple hundred dollars for a fuel plate in a 12 valve...which can be done by any mechanically inclined person. its easy, but it wasnt 'easy' 10 years ago because not many people knew what a fuel plate did. the hindsight now is 'you just grind here'.
those companies also made/making headway with the 24 valves...impressive at first but sometimes hindsight makes one frustrated because it was so simple.
usually with time, prices come down! in the rapidly growing sport of diesel performance, it might be awhile until other competition steps up that provides the same product for half the price with reliability.
if enough people pay for it, its just might be worth it for some companies to charge that much.
CatCracker2- my post took a little time, but i see you mentioned the fuel plate as well
03-01-2007, 02:40 PM
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And I dont disagree with the R&D tear down, but remember one key thing! These guys did not do it for any other reason then a quest for HP on their own! This is a hobby. Maybe it is as simple as "Hey, I just figured out something that gains HP, and now I will charge for it." Ill bet you big bux that in the inital stages of this mod, no one even paid for the mod, or if they did, very little." They were the "beta" testers. Tell me how many people lost money.... surely it wasnt as much as originally thought.
I dont disagree with anything that pgilles is saying, I agree that is probably how it all goes, but is it FAIR and just to the growth of the hobby/sport? THAT is the real question. I think most of us agree that the profit margins are insanely high, and what I am trying to accomplish is trying to convince these companies and people who do these kits/mods to lower the price into the realm of reality, and by doing this, stimulates the market 10 fold, and in the end, the modder/kit maker makes MORE money!
I am not saying to make the modded pump 400.00, but I am saying that I believe that 600 - 700 is MORE than fair.
I happen to have a brand new pump, and it baffles me that it will cost me 1100 to do the simple mods, when the pump itself is only 700 bux brand NEW if that.
Well, enough of that, I think everyone gets the point I am trying to make.
I dont disagree with anything that pgilles is saying, I agree that is probably how it all goes, but is it FAIR and just to the growth of the hobby/sport? THAT is the real question. I think most of us agree that the profit margins are insanely high, and what I am trying to accomplish is trying to convince these companies and people who do these kits/mods to lower the price into the realm of reality, and by doing this, stimulates the market 10 fold, and in the end, the modder/kit maker makes MORE money!
I am not saying to make the modded pump 400.00, but I am saying that I believe that 600 - 700 is MORE than fair.
I happen to have a brand new pump, and it baffles me that it will cost me 1100 to do the simple mods, when the pump itself is only 700 bux brand NEW if that.
Well, enough of that, I think everyone gets the point I am trying to make.
03-01-2007, 02:47 PM
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The reason you might possibly save $7k over your buddy is because you have a stick and he has an auto. You will NEVER find a built tranny for $500 like your clutch. Don't fool people into thinking they can have 550hp and save 7 grand over everyone else and have better results. If you have an auto you will have more than $3,000 tied up in a trans that will hold 550hp if you do anything more than drive a dyno queen.
03-01-2007, 03:09 PM
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I know for a fact that there is a large mark up on a lot of this stuff. I am not going to mention names, but I have spoken with an owner of a well known shop that custom builds pulling trucks for a living.
Anyway, my question on the stock CP3 is can we completely eliminate the lift pump dodge sticks on these trucks from the factory ? If this CP3 is designed as everyone is saying it is.
Anyway, my question on the stock CP3 is can we completely eliminate the lift pump dodge sticks on these trucks from the factory ? If this CP3 is designed as everyone is saying it is.
03-01-2007, 03:57 PM
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Our stage 1 is not $1100.00, After alot of machining you have to consider the time to completely pull the pump apart and the cleaning after all the machining is done and there is ALOT! of cleaning and prep work! There is not metal filings to clean out only the fact that our fuel systems need to filter down to 2 micron so just in travel to and from the machine shop and being exposed to open air theres alot to do and care to put these things back together.There are certain parts that have to be put back together too. There is alot of labor time in the pump besides machining!
John
John
03-01-2007, 04:39 PM
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I think we have kinda lost sight of this post. I just made it since I had never heard of modding a cp3 at home. It was never ment to point fingers at anyone (or company). I dont think we should compare a diy pump mod to a pump that would come from Floor It, II, or anyone who has taken the time to really figure out how these things work and how to make them better. I just dont think it is fair to compare the two. Joel
03-01-2007, 05:11 PM
#75
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I dont know a thing about what exactly is done to the pumps. What i ment was theirs alot of cost associated in running a diesel performance business that you dont see, these people are trying to make a good living and you cant blame them for that. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to buy their products, so if you dont like the cost go somewhere else, or build your own, with any luck you might do it right so you wont hurt something. If they could charge 5 thousand and still sell them, hey more power to em.