compound turbo design questions
11-20-2013, 03:24 PM
#46
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11-20-2013, 04:13 PM
#47
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John Isaacs at Floor It was one of the original cp3 pump mod gurus. You can see a lot of his "battles" with Shane at wicked diesels over pump mods at CompD. Anyway, he had some health issues and scaled back some for a time but he makes a heck of a good pump. Google Floor It Diesel, he is in Lawrence KS.
11-20-2013, 05:34 PM
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Well I decided I would use my current turbo (3782R) with the internal gate welded shut and actuator removed. Over a GT4202R primary. With my BBi Stage 1 injectors should be a pretty nice set of twins for my use of the truck. Prolly somewhere around 600/1100 which will be perfect for me and I won't have to upgrade from my Garmon Stage 2 tranny. And won't need twin CP3s so all this will fit into my budget quite a lot better. Likely will get a Hellmann CAC and some ARP 625s with some good springs too. That should be a sweet running setup there.
11-24-2013, 10:04 AM
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Also, guys, remember, boost is NOTHING but a RESTRICTION in the intake tract. It may have been mentioned somewhere along these 4 pages, but I missed it, so I wanted to make sure it was talked about.
VOLUME of air is what you REALLY want. Boost is inevitable, when dealing with forced induction of course, but the smaller the intake path, the more restriction you have, and the more "boost" you have (which is also hotter air I might add).
So, the FIRST thing you should want to do, is improve the intake tract anyways that you can.
And that brings me to this:
With ALL of the advancement in turbos, and all of the work put into Meth/Water inj, Nitrous, programmers, injectors, etc...WHY ON EARTH HAS NO ONE MADE AN AFTERMARKET CR Cylinder head????
I think Schied made a 12 valve head? And someone else made another 12 valve head maybe???
But, NO ONE has made an aftermarket HIGHER FLOWING common rail head for our trucks. If you look at the flow numbers on a stock cylinder head, its pretty amazing the power we are able to get out of these motors.
And, I know that is a BIG reason why someone hasn't invested the money in designing/manufacturing a cylinder head, because of what kind of power we are able to get with the STOCK head.
My point is, with a higher flowing cylinder head, you are able to move greater amounts of air, at lower boost levels, and produce MORE power, AND be easier on parts such as turbos, head gaskets, pistons, etc...
I do a lot of engine dyno work (more gas than diesel I might add), but I have been around long enough (been at this for 27-28 yrs now), and seen enough examples to know, improving airflow should be the FIRST thing you do to a motor, improve efficiency. Obviously a motor is nothing more than air pump...takes air in, compresses it, pushes it out, and in the process, turns that work into energy/power.
By improving those area's, it's win win. THEN, you add "boost", and you REALLY reap the benefits.
We had a customer's car come in, put close 600 HP to the tires @ 18PSI (Camaro with LSx motor, twin turbos, stock heads). All we did was install a better set of heads, and intake and kept the cam the same.
Same car now pushed closer to 700 HP to the tires, BUT, it was now at 10 PSI. So, we were able to make MORE power, with way LESS boost. And that in turn, is easier on EVERYTHING. BEcause, at 18PSI, this customer had to tickle his pump gas with Octane booster, but now at 10PSI, he can get away with regular pump gas.
Just food for thought...improve airflow (and SOMEONE MAKE A CYLINDER HEAD FOR OUR CR!!!!!)
VOLUME of air is what you REALLY want. Boost is inevitable, when dealing with forced induction of course, but the smaller the intake path, the more restriction you have, and the more "boost" you have (which is also hotter air I might add).
So, the FIRST thing you should want to do, is improve the intake tract anyways that you can.
And that brings me to this:
With ALL of the advancement in turbos, and all of the work put into Meth/Water inj, Nitrous, programmers, injectors, etc...WHY ON EARTH HAS NO ONE MADE AN AFTERMARKET CR Cylinder head????
I think Schied made a 12 valve head? And someone else made another 12 valve head maybe???
But, NO ONE has made an aftermarket HIGHER FLOWING common rail head for our trucks. If you look at the flow numbers on a stock cylinder head, its pretty amazing the power we are able to get out of these motors.
And, I know that is a BIG reason why someone hasn't invested the money in designing/manufacturing a cylinder head, because of what kind of power we are able to get with the STOCK head.
My point is, with a higher flowing cylinder head, you are able to move greater amounts of air, at lower boost levels, and produce MORE power, AND be easier on parts such as turbos, head gaskets, pistons, etc...
I do a lot of engine dyno work (more gas than diesel I might add), but I have been around long enough (been at this for 27-28 yrs now), and seen enough examples to know, improving airflow should be the FIRST thing you do to a motor, improve efficiency. Obviously a motor is nothing more than air pump...takes air in, compresses it, pushes it out, and in the process, turns that work into energy/power.
By improving those area's, it's win win. THEN, you add "boost", and you REALLY reap the benefits.
We had a customer's car come in, put close 600 HP to the tires @ 18PSI (Camaro with LSx motor, twin turbos, stock heads). All we did was install a better set of heads, and intake and kept the cam the same.
Same car now pushed closer to 700 HP to the tires, BUT, it was now at 10 PSI. So, we were able to make MORE power, with way LESS boost. And that in turn, is easier on EVERYTHING. BEcause, at 18PSI, this customer had to tickle his pump gas with Octane booster, but now at 10PSI, he can get away with regular pump gas.
Just food for thought...improve airflow (and SOMEONE MAKE A CYLINDER HEAD FOR OUR CR!!!!!)
11-24-2013, 10:41 AM
#52
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Also, guys, remember, boost is NOTHING but a RESTRICTION in the intake tract. It may have been mentioned somewhere along these 4 pages, but I missed it, so I wanted to make sure it was talked about.
VOLUME of air is what you REALLY want. Boost is inevitable, when dealing with forced induction of course, but the smaller the intake path, the more restriction you have, and the more "boost" you have (which is also hotter air I might add).
So, the FIRST thing you should want to do, is improve the intake tract anyways that you can.
And that brings me to this:
With ALL of the advancement in turbos, and all of the work put into Meth/Water inj, Nitrous, programmers, injectors, etc...WHY ON EARTH HAS NO ONE MADE AN AFTERMARKET CR Cylinder head????
I think Schied made a 12 valve head? And someone else made another 12 valve head maybe???
But, NO ONE has made an aftermarket HIGHER FLOWING common rail head for our trucks. If you look at the flow numbers on a stock cylinder head, its pretty amazing the power we are able to get out of these motors.
And, I know that is a BIG reason why someone hasn't invested the money in designing/manufacturing a cylinder head, because of what kind of power we are able to get with the STOCK head.
My point is, with a higher flowing cylinder head, you are able to move greater amounts of air, at lower boost levels, and produce MORE power, AND be easier on parts such as turbos, head gaskets, pistons, etc...
I do a lot of engine dyno work (more gas than diesel I might add), but I have been around long enough (been at this for 27-28 yrs now), and seen enough examples to know, improving airflow should be the FIRST thing you do to a motor, improve efficiency. Obviously a motor is nothing more than air pump...takes air in, compresses it, pushes it out, and in the process, turns that work into energy/power.
By improving those area's, it's win win. THEN, you add "boost", and you REALLY reap the benefits.
We had a customer's car come in, put close 600 HP to the tires @ 18PSI (Camaro with LSx motor, twin turbos, stock heads). All we did was install a better set of heads, and intake and kept the cam the same.
Same car now pushed closer to 700 HP to the tires, BUT, it was now at 10 PSI. So, we were able to make MORE power, with way LESS boost. And that in turn, is easier on EVERYTHING. BEcause, at 18PSI, this customer had to tickle his pump gas with Octane booster, but now at 10PSI, he can get away with regular pump gas.
Just food for thought...improve airflow (and SOMEONE MAKE A CYLINDER HEAD FOR OUR CR!!!!!)
VOLUME of air is what you REALLY want. Boost is inevitable, when dealing with forced induction of course, but the smaller the intake path, the more restriction you have, and the more "boost" you have (which is also hotter air I might add).
So, the FIRST thing you should want to do, is improve the intake tract anyways that you can.
And that brings me to this:
With ALL of the advancement in turbos, and all of the work put into Meth/Water inj, Nitrous, programmers, injectors, etc...WHY ON EARTH HAS NO ONE MADE AN AFTERMARKET CR Cylinder head????
I think Schied made a 12 valve head? And someone else made another 12 valve head maybe???
But, NO ONE has made an aftermarket HIGHER FLOWING common rail head for our trucks. If you look at the flow numbers on a stock cylinder head, its pretty amazing the power we are able to get out of these motors.
And, I know that is a BIG reason why someone hasn't invested the money in designing/manufacturing a cylinder head, because of what kind of power we are able to get with the STOCK head.
My point is, with a higher flowing cylinder head, you are able to move greater amounts of air, at lower boost levels, and produce MORE power, AND be easier on parts such as turbos, head gaskets, pistons, etc...
I do a lot of engine dyno work (more gas than diesel I might add), but I have been around long enough (been at this for 27-28 yrs now), and seen enough examples to know, improving airflow should be the FIRST thing you do to a motor, improve efficiency. Obviously a motor is nothing more than air pump...takes air in, compresses it, pushes it out, and in the process, turns that work into energy/power.
By improving those area's, it's win win. THEN, you add "boost", and you REALLY reap the benefits.
We had a customer's car come in, put close 600 HP to the tires @ 18PSI (Camaro with LSx motor, twin turbos, stock heads). All we did was install a better set of heads, and intake and kept the cam the same.
Same car now pushed closer to 700 HP to the tires, BUT, it was now at 10 PSI. So, we were able to make MORE power, with way LESS boost. And that in turn, is easier on EVERYTHING. BEcause, at 18PSI, this customer had to tickle his pump gas with Octane booster, but now at 10PSI, he can get away with regular pump gas.
Just food for thought...improve airflow (and SOMEONE MAKE A CYLINDER HEAD FOR OUR CR!!!!!)
Think of the possibilities presented: going with smaller turbos and supplying the same volume of air, with greater velocity and less back pressure to create heat. Of course the cam cannot be ignored either. Due to the attempt to induce in-cylinder EGR, this is a biggie that needs to be addressed especially by those attempting to work with smaller turbos and generally by everyone trying to increase performance by efficiency. Intrigued with the idea of increasing volumetric efficiency of the engine by removing pressure drops more than by increasing turbo size. Of course this approach naturally lends itself more to placing the powerband lower from idle to 2200 rpm BUT still applies to all looking to squeeze everything to be had out of an engine build.
11-24-2013, 10:45 AM
#53
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Got ahold of Todd at T & C and got a 6.7 CP3 with a wild rail and 30k psi relief valve on order to go with the BBi Stage 1 injectors. Later on will get the Hellmann CAC ordered. Wish I had a money tree in the backyard...
11-24-2013, 08:22 PM
#54
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On a side note on a cam upgrade. Make sure you know what is the nominal RPM your truck works at. That is where you want to make sure you are "On the cam's" power band. So, if you have 3.73 gears with 35" tires and at 50mph you are at 1450rpms you will want to select a cam that will help you at the lower rpm range. So, you will tell whomever you have chosen for your cam vender that you want the cam to come in at 1300-1400 rpms to 2200-2300 rpms. You also select your chargers on this same aspect. Where your truck is going to work at or do the most work at. So, building a engine to drag race but you mostly DD and tow is not a wise decision.
11-24-2013, 08:29 PM
#55
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As far as an aftermarket head, it would be good for a race truck. Hamilton made one for the 12 valve trucks. I may look into getting a spare head, shaving the intake off and having a quality port/polish done to it. I like the Hellman intakes better than the ZZ fab.
11-24-2013, 08:39 PM
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I thought about having that done. If so, would have to drill and tap bolt holes to attach the intake right? Prolly a stupid question but heck I embarrass myself semi regularly anyways... ;0)
11-24-2013, 08:42 PM
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I wrote down the cam numbers somewhere I think John or someone told me in a PM? At any rate I can't seem to find them can someone state the designations for the real good low-end and street cams for Hamilton and Colt? Is that 188/208 the good one for the low end and street application?
I need to start researching that quite a bit. Thanks guys.
I need to start researching that quite a bit. Thanks guys.
11-24-2013, 09:03 PM
#58
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Good thread. I have been following variants with the same OP on other forums and PMs.
I'll start off off with the cam, yes Geoff Colt and Zach Hamilton did sell the same grids for many years. Zach's 178/208 is the torquey version of the big stock, and the 188/208 is the free revving version. Geoff's big stick, aka stage 3, is also an excellent grind for mid/upper end. Pick one, anything is better than stock. I have ran the Colt 175/206 for the last few years and have been very pleased, now I'm trying the Hamilton 178/208.
Turbos.... So, this is a lot of my understanding as I haven't ran twins yet. The primary determines your total power, and the secondary determines your spool. That being said they have to be matched, you can't run a GT30, and a GT55 for towing spool and 1000hp..
Garrett NB's are great because the offer the spool of a small a/r with the back-pressure of a large a/r. My GT3782R rarely has more drive pressure than boost, only under rapid rpm/load changes and very high rpms (for me that's 2700+), and then maybe 1.2:1.
So I would say to size the primary where you want to be, maybe a size bigger since it twins. It may cost you in the upper rpms, but will be better in the lower end.
Just my .02.
I'll start off off with the cam, yes Geoff Colt and Zach Hamilton did sell the same grids for many years. Zach's 178/208 is the torquey version of the big stock, and the 188/208 is the free revving version. Geoff's big stick, aka stage 3, is also an excellent grind for mid/upper end. Pick one, anything is better than stock. I have ran the Colt 175/206 for the last few years and have been very pleased, now I'm trying the Hamilton 178/208.
Turbos.... So, this is a lot of my understanding as I haven't ran twins yet. The primary determines your total power, and the secondary determines your spool. That being said they have to be matched, you can't run a GT30, and a GT55 for towing spool and 1000hp..
Garrett NB's are great because the offer the spool of a small a/r with the back-pressure of a large a/r. My GT3782R rarely has more drive pressure than boost, only under rapid rpm/load changes and very high rpms (for me that's 2700+), and then maybe 1.2:1.
So I would say to size the primary where you want to be, maybe a size bigger since it twins. It may cost you in the upper rpms, but will be better in the lower end.
Just my .02.
11-25-2013, 01:41 AM
#60
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I wrote down the cam numbers somewhere I think John or someone told me in a PM? At any rate I can't seem to find them can someone state the designations for the real good low-end and street cams for Hamilton and Colt? Is that 188/208 the good one for the low end and street application?
I need to start researching that quite a bit. Thanks guys.
I need to start researching that quite a bit. Thanks guys.